00:00:00Tamara: This is interview two with Dr. Karen DePauw, Dean and Vice President of Graduate Education. It is February 3rd, 2015, and my name is Tamara Kennelly. I wanted to back up a bit. You mentioned in your last interview that before you came to Virginia Tech you had been fighting for social justice, and I wondered if you could explain what you meant by this.
00:00:27Karen: Essentially that was a commitment that I made years ago, and I will explain a little bit about that, to advocate for equity, social justice, and primarily with the work that I was doing. I worked with individuals with disabilities. I was a public school teacher working with them, so individuals with disabilities and disability rights and disability studies were very much a part of my professional being and my research, etcetera. I had been very active with individuals with disabilities a lot in the sporting arena. I was very involved with the United States Olympic committee and their efforts in promoting what was called disability sport at the time. I did that on the national and international level with the paralympic movement. I was also very active in girls and women in sport movement. I was very active in sport myself and advocating for girls and women in sport. The reason I mentioned the United States Olympic Committee [USOC] is I was actually invited to participate on a task force on disability and a task force on women for the USOC. So that was just reinforcing I think a lot of my commitment to promote inclusion essentially and equity and social justice. I was also involved with inclusion in terms of publishing papers and presenting on inclusion of individuals with disabilities, which I find very interesting now that what I did years ago, and I'm still invited to speak about on occasion, or recently, and now Virginia Tech has a whole inclusive VT movement. It is just kind of interesting to see how the various parts of my life come together in that way. So I was very much the advocate for anything that was socially unjust at faculty meetings, in the classroom, at the university, I would be the person who would speak up and raise some of the issues. I guess that explains at least a little bit about that.
00:03:28Tamara: What was the campus and community climate like at Washington State University as far as gender issues and diversity and inclusion goes when you were the graduate dean there?
00:03:44Karen: It was more inclusive than Virginia Tech was.
00:03:55Tamara: We are talking about at that time?
00:03:58Karen: Right, this was fifteen or twenty years ago, and I was there prior to becoming graduate dean. The State of Washington is much more progressive than Virginia; it is a progressive state. Washington State University [WSU] was in a more conservative area because it's southeast Washington, right next to Idaho and Oregon in that corner. That was a more conservative area, but still it was not as conservative as what was to find in the South or in other places. I think it was fairly progressive. I had worked with a team to put together, we called something different, but it was essentially our Principles of Community here at Virginia Tech. We had done something like that at WSU while I was dean. We had expanded the offices of equity and social justice; I can't remember exactly what the titles were. I was working with that group. There was a conservatism and some of the faculty were conservative at the university, but for the most part it was pretty progressive. The things that, in terms of inclusion, we had recruitment of underrepresented minorities and individuals of diverse backgrounds. We had been doing that. One of my associate deans was in charge of that. He actually did that before I became dean. So it was already fairly inclusive. Washington State University was one of the first universities to have a senior leader of diversity, a chief diversity officer, and that was early on. So that I think just kind of shows the climate and what was going on there.
00:06:36Tamara: Did you ever experience any kind of discrimination there at WSU?
00:06:44Karen: Not directly as would become the case at Virginia Tech. Within the Department of Kinesiology there were some faculty members who were very homophobic and really didn't want a strong woman regardless of orientation among them, but that was more subtle. No, really there was not real evidence of discrimination or hurtful actions.
00:07:25Tamara: The fact that you were asked to apply, you were sort of nominated to apply for the job here at Virginia Tech, it indicates to me that people heard about you and your work there, and I wondered if you made at WSU when you were dean of the graduate school, you made a lot of change. We are going to talk more about your change made here, but I just wondered if that was sort of the history you made, really changing the department and if that was something you had done there as well.
00:08:05Karen: I was beginning to develop what would become called here transformative graduate education. So I had started that work. I was teaching the future professoriate course, and I was very involved with interdisciplinary graduate education. At that time, I was also active in the Council of Grad Schools as a member, and I participated in the Western Association of Grad Schools. So in that way I think people knew me and had come to know some of the work that I was doing, at least some of the ideas, because I brought my ideas from Washington State University, and they were fully developed here. I was talking about, interestingly enough with the graduate student leaders at WSU, a Graduate Life Center type concept, of building a space where they could hang out. Again I can see some of the things that I was doing there, now being able to be implemented here. In that way because I was attending conferences for graduate schools, for the future of higher education in particular ACE [American Council on Education]., I would go to what then was called NASULGC (now APLU), so being engaged in and attended those kinds of conferences is what allowed people to get to at least know me and what I was doing and that I was a brand new dean. I had a couple of years of deanery behind me before I got nominated here.
00:10:12Tamara: So you arrived in Blacksburg in August 2002, and I wonder what kind of support you received from the university community when you first arrived.
00:10:22Karen: That really depends on which part. I have to divide the university and community into parts, because once the letters and the BOV [Board of Visitors] action overturning Shelli's appointment, when all of that became public, there was outcry among some faculty members who then were very strong in their opposition, and they then would become kind of the support group from afar, as we were moving across the country and then when we got here. So the faculty who stood up were very, very supportive of us coming. The staff in the graduate school were supportive, but in different ways. I think they knew they had to take this person because I was hired. I wasn't going away, so I think they were cautious about who I was and did I have horns or anything like that. They were not, not supportive, but some were concerned because of their views, so they were questioning that. Some on the staff were absolutely outraged at the BOV action, and therefore then very supportive. The president and the provost expressed their support. I know for sure that the provost was very upset by the actions that were taken, and he was trying to be very supportive, and I know that to be sincere. The first day that I arrived in the office, my first day of work, both of them stopped by my office to see me, and President Steger gave me a bottle of wine. We probably broke a lot of rules that day. We didn't drink it on campus, but we shared a bottle of wine. So in that way there was the outreach of supportive individuals. There were other individuals with whom I had to interact that would keep at a distance. Well I know many of them wish I would have just gone away and I never would have come to [Virginia] Tech, but when one arrives and has a title and authority and responsibility, they had to respect the position, and therefore, I don't think they respected me per se, but they had to deal with the fact that I had responsibility. So they were not very supportive, which makes it hard to say because the community was very broad in that way. Students were supportive, the ones that I would interact with primarily, but there's always those where you don't know. I don't see them. I don't know what they're thinking. There were some incidences in the community, interestingly enough, where we bought a house that was not completely finished, so we had some of the workers who were coming in and finishing up everything. We had to be in an apartment for almost a month, I think, before we could move into the house. That created some interesting interactions because when the builders, a couple of them when they found out it was two women, then I know that they did not give us the best treatment. There were some things where had it been a typical family, they would have done the work in the house better. It's just silly little things like fighting to get the stairs to meet code. I mean these people just weren't even--
00:15:20Tamara: Wow those are important things.
00:15:21Karen: Yes, important things, and I know that financially we got ripped off on some things. We got taken advantage of on a fence that we were putting up, but it was really hard to know exactly what was going on because we really didn't have a community here. We wouldn't find out until kind of later because to our face people were fine. Some faculty and others really wanting to be supportive of us, and then there were others who just thought these people don't belong here.
00:16:01Tamara: Were there any overt kind of actions or anything that you experienced from people in the community or on campus of instances of discrimination or anything?
00:16:19Karen: Well I can't remember now whether we already talked about the first board meeting when I attended, and I was not introduced.
00:16:35Karen: Right.
00:16:36Karen: I tried not to take that as a slap in the face, and with the rector at that time looking me up and down, I found that pretty offensive.
00:16:46Tamara: That's very offensive, yeah.
00:16:53Karen: The second when I did present to the Board, and the questioning about my definition of diversity and recruitment. I was asked specifically how do I define diversity? And the two individuals who were doing most of the questioning really wanted to trip me up because they never said it directly, but they were afraid I was going to recruit gays and lesbians, is how I would interpret that. I can't judge what they were actually thinking. I was aware of what they were trying to do to lure me into that space where I would make a mistake. I know legally what was non-discrimination here in Virginia was at that time [discrimination] and nationally, and I made that very clear so they understood that. I was also very clear that I wanted to create inclusive environments. So those things were not direct discrimination, but they came from a place of not accepting who I was and doing what we would probably call microaggressions now. Both Shelli and I didn't know whether we'd end up with a cross burnt on our yard. We didn't, but we never knew exactly. There were times when it didn't feel real safe, but yet there was no stalking, no one following me around a store. I guess one of the things that comes to mind too now that I think about it. Again it's not really discrimination, but --
00:19:05Tamara: A negative reaction.
00:19:07Karen: Yes. I was in the grad school. It was my first semester as dean, and there were several complaints or audits, as I recall. They came to my attention. They said I was going to be audited because there was, I believe, the recycle was on the stairs, and that was inappropriate. My staff couldn't leave the recycle on the staircase; I didn't know it was there. That was one. Another one was related to the fact that prior to my arrival, the grad school had ordered and had to pay for, I believe, air conditioning or air conditioners, the external kind. Then they paid a family member of one of the staff members to put it in. Now there may be some things wrong with that, but that was all before I arrived. So I got notice of recycle in the hallway, the air-conditioning payment, they wanted to audit something of my budget. By the time they got to the fourth or fifth of these, I said, timeout. Just leave me alone. I said, I'll open up the books. I remember saying this, I'll do whatever, but give me a chance to try to get a handle on what is happening. So I looked at that as not being very welcoming, and again I felt as if there were some, a few, who didn't want me to be here who then would, they were almost aggressive in trying to force me into these kind of audit situations, but I went to the provost and said, timeout I can't, and, this is not right. So they did back off, whoever they were. Everybody kind of backed off. Later there would be another audit, and maybe it was the time for the audit to occur, but it certainly didn't feel like that. When you get all these complaints about most of the things that I had nothing to do with, I just said, give me a chance to make a difference; then everything will be fine.
00:22:07Tamara: There was a mention in that article that you and Shelli wrote of Justice for Tech, a group called that, and they actually initiated a nationwide letter writing campaign on your behalf. I hadn't actually heard of that group. Is that a group that--
00:22:26Karen: It was mostly I think faculty members and community members who were supportive, and it was kind of a letter writing campaign. I never knew who all was involved, and letters were sought and sent in from professional organizations, and I can't even remember now where all they came from, but the letters were to be sent to I believe the president and the rector and the BOV, and it was, I don't know, two hundred or so letters maybe. Now I can't remember for sure.
00:23:17Tamara: That's the number that I've heard.
00:23:19Karen: It's kind of like Margaret Meads' quote about a small number, whatever that is, taking a handful of individuals to change the world. Indeed that's the thing it has. Her statement is far better. I just botched it, but it was a small handful of people who helped make that change. In that way that community was very supportive. We had people from Roanoke who would express their support.
00:24:01Tamara: So that's not a group that exists now for example?
00:24:05Karen: No, it was really kind of a group that came around--
00:24:08Tamara: As ad hoc?
00:24:10Karen: Yes. Just to tell the Board in particular and the administration how inappropriate many of us thought they acted.
00:24:28Tamara: Your temporary position was approved by the Board of Visitors in March 2003. However, at that meeting, the Board decided to remove sexual orientation from Virginia Tech's non-discrimination policy, and they also preempted the Supreme Court that had not yet decided the University of Michigan affirmative action case, and the rector led the Board in eliminating--this is a long statement--Virginia Tech's affirmative hiring practices for hiring faculty and admissions, so it was kind of a double thing. I just wondered what was your response at that point to those actions by the Board.
00:25:13Karen: Needless to say I was pretty irritated. They also at some time, maybe not at that Board meeting but another one, they also tried to go after freedom of speech.
00:25:26Tamara: That's right. I think that's why that statement was so long.
00:25:31Karen: Yes. They had several resolutions, and I think part of this and we probably would have to check history and maybe you know, but they pulled out these resolutions out of a briefcase right before. There was not the vetting of those, at least not for the freedom of speech and bringing people on campus--that was pulled out of a briefcase. Needless to say that I was very upset by the three or four actions they took. I knew how it was directed. I also knew that we had no protection on sexual orientation in the state, and by that time, we had already met Tim Kaine, who was lieutenant governor at the time. There were individuals on Mark Warner's staff as governor, who--I need to talk about equality in Virginia, but there were people who were--I'll come back to your question in a minute--there were people who were very supportive, and Mark Warner had promised that by year three of his term, he would enact executive order number one. Up until that time, there was no protection on the basis of sexual orientation. I think Rocovich and his colleagues just decided that it wasn't law. There were no protections, so why should Virginia Tech have it in their non-discrimination? They were also, as you said, preemptive in race neutral, to implement that as well. Now what they didn't know is that would bring together the gay community and the Black community. People were outraged by that dual action, as well as the other things that the Board tried to do. There were some good people on the Board of Visitors at the time, and I think that they were uncomfortable with the actions, so much that they were to reverse that and be a part of the change after a while. I want to name two individuals here because Ben Davenport became a very strong supporter and Jake Lutz. By supporter I mean of the university and change. Personally, professionally, yes, those two in particular, I know had a lot to do with making sure that what happened at that time would never happen again in several ways, by making sure that resolutions had both first and second readings initially, or that they had time to be vetted so that no one could pull it out of their briefcase. They also were involved in making sure that the rector could serve a maximum of two years, because the rector at the time really wanted to serve longer and be reappointed so he could continue the more conservative approach to governance. So those two were very instrumental in helping to overturn what they did do. That's when we made the national press again, we meaning Virginia Tech. There was the standoff with Owens I think probably the March BOV meeting. I can't remember when it was, but I know that the football player who was on the Board of Visitors, but could never attend, attended that meeting because the governor said you will be there. So I think what was happening is that there were Democrats in the governor's mansion, and it was probably an understanding that some of those things were going to change to protect gays and lesbians, so the Board tried to just make sure that it didn't happen at [Virginia] Tech.
00:30:28Tamara: In April, just a month later, the Board did have an emergency session to reverse their March session, and I remember around that time there were a lot of marches on campus and meetings in front of Burruss and things with students that were not terribly organized, but expressions of outrage and people being upset.
00:30:59Karen: Yes, they came, and many of them were protesting with signs and other things during that meeting. It was a very interesting meeting because as an administrator I needed to sit in a certain place, and I think we were off to the side of the Board, and I could see some of the folks. They were very close on the vote. That's what the fear was that it wouldn't be overturned, but there was a fair amount of politicking going on. Bruce Smith was the football player, and he spoke, and Rocovich was very clear on what he wanted, and there were several people who were obviously going to vote with him. Then there were the Davenports and Lutzes and others and Bruce Smith who were on the other side who would stand up, so it was a very interesting time. From where I was sitting, I could see the audience. I could see the protesting, students demonstrating and faculty and staff. I could see the Board, and there was one individual that I know he was very, very conflicted. I think his personal views were such that he didn't want to vote to overturn, but he did. I could see him wrestling with that, and I got to thank him later. I think what had happened during that time as well, that 2002-2003 time, people could also see that I was a competent administrator, and Shelli was competent as well, although she was in that temporary position. I think that helped that we were not bad people, but that caused some conflict because it wasn't easy for the Board to make that decision.
00:33:29Tamara: No, it certainly wasn't. In an article you and Shelli wrote, it's called "Dual Career Queer Couple Hiring in Southwest Virginia," there's a line "in a compulsory heterosexual worldview there is a lack of understanding that all sexuality is always already public." [Laughter] I wondered if you could explain that.
00:34:06Karen: Can you read that one more time?
00:34:09Tamara: Sure, I realize when you're writing an article with somebody, you can have their line, and it's under both names.
00:34:15Karen: Yes, and that's more of a Shelli line, but essentially what I think we are trying to say there, and it's got to be in the context of the paragraph and section, is that for the most part in society, except more recently, the expectation has been to be heterosexual, and that is what is compulsory, what is kind of required, but in reality sexuality is very fluid and is more public than one realizes. Especially if there is a deviation.
00:35:09Tamara: Because of how people present themselves?
00:35:12Karen: How they present themselves, how they dress, how they act, whether they conform to the stereotypic norms of dropping my partner he, as opposed to my partner she. Just a lot of the things that we do. It's probably better to ask Shelli for more clarification.
00:35:42Tamara: Okay. I just wondered why it is important to have an explicit statement including non-discrimination of sexual orientation in light of this cultural heterosexism? So that's important to protect the people?
00:36:04Karen: Yes. In a perfect world where everyone is accepted, we wouldn't need these, but we don't live in a perfect world, so it is important to have very specific statements and inclusion in that non-discrimination to protect those from harm that someone might want to either implicitly or explicitly discriminate against them. You probably are aware of all the discussion around gender identity, gender expression that we have had recently in terms of non-discrimination 1025 [Policy No. 1025 Anti-Discrimination and Harassment Prevention Policy] and trying to get those terms in the non-discrimination, and they are in there right now. I think it remains important to protect those who might need some protection. I really tend to look at things with a glass half full in terms of let's do more of the inclusion type thing, but we also have to have the non-discrimination.
00:37:29Tamara: I wonder, and I'm asking this question because of an incident that I witnessed at one point in Squires at some kind of diversity gathering. I'm not sure exactly. It wasn't the big thing over at the Inn. It was something else, but if women, even those in high positions in the university, become in a sense invisible, and this was a situation where you were one of the speakers or maybe a row of the six people, and somebody, one of the men said, well we're all men up here. It was like hello? Have you looked? I can't even remember what the event was exactly, but just from the audience it was just like--
00:38:09Karen: Yes, I remember that very clearly and have used it as an example because it was all VP's including me, and I was at the far end.
00:38:24Tamara: Right you were at the end.
00:38:30Karen: It was one of the diversity events, and I just can't remember how it was titled. It was kind of an annual thing, and Will Lewis was there. He was running the event, and we were asked to be on the panel. I will never forget that because the individual who stood up and said, we're all men, and people were looking at me, and I'm looking at the audience going [makes gesture]. I believe that I raised my hand, and I said, excuse me? Then, and I'll name it. It was Sherwood Wilson. He looked, and he said, you are so short I didn't see you. At which point I responded, I'm queer and left-handed. I was mad, and I'm not left handed.
00:39:27Tamara: I'm sure, and I don't mean to laugh.
00:39:29Karen: No, no, I laugh at it now too.
00:39:34Tamara: Well it's just outrageous.
00:39:34Karen: I'm looking out at the people in the audience, and they all get it. My male colleagues, they didn't. Sherwood to his credit tried to come and apologize, and I tried to talk with him, and he did not get it, and I think he still doesn't get it. He doesn't understand the put down, the microaggression. Unfortunately, we still have these things that exist, where it's subtle. In the boys' world, they're just joking, but it's not a joke. When he--unintentionally, he didn't mean to do it--he just couldn't help himself. He thought it was cute [saying], she's so short. He had seen me. He knew I was there, but I wasn't in his visual. That's some of the work that we need to do because there's an audience of very much diversity, and this is all about the celebration of diversity.
00:40:53Tamara: That's why we were there.
00:40:55Karen: Yes. It was a showcase of what not to do, but it made for a few fun times [laughter].
00:41:05Tamara: [Laughter] Well it was quite striking. Then you think, is it empty rhetoric? Or is it just that it's kind of a path and continuum, and slowly things kind of move along.
00:41:24Karen: Well, going back to--related to that is the invisibility of women and racial ethnic minorities, name any group social identity. I have felt invisible here in many ways, and it's not atypical of women in leadership positions where I can say something, and I can be ignored or just people nod, and then a guy says it, and then it's okay. That's just a very typical, unfortunately, typical interaction where the woman in this case is just more generalized. It still happens. Most of it is unconscious, getting to unconscious bias that a lot more people are talking about right now. In some cases, I think it is intentional, but not with me right now, or at least I hope not. Let me just share a story. The provost would have Monday morning meetings with his VP's, and still does. Early on in those discussions, I was the only female. At times there were African American males, but for the longest time I was the only female. When we would have discussions, and if there was something related to diversity, inclusion, inequity, or something, I would raise the issue. I would bring it up, and we would talk about it. These are my colleagues, so it was very friendly, and they would hear that. What happened over time is that I would make the statement, and then the guys would chime in. Then we would have a conversation about it. Then I decided that I really didn't need to be the one bringing it up all the time, so then something would come up that was blatantly related to diversity and inclusion, and one of my colleagues, he figured out that he needed to pick up the ball, so he would say something then he would look at me to see if it was okay. I'd nod like yes, it's fine, so then what this was, was a process of building an ally. Now it didn't always have to be me bringing it up and him supporting me. Now he could bring it up, and then he sought approval or recognition or support from me, so that he knew then that he was doing what he and I thought would be the best thing to do, the proper thing to do. Then we moved to a point where he no longer had to look at me, so that then he would say it, and then I would agree or disagree or whatever, but that was the agency that he was developing. I watched that over probably the period of a year develop. I didn't intentionally go in to do that, but the opportunity was created, and it was really interesting to watch. Because then he learned more about understanding the different perspectives and empowered himself to speak up and is now a strong vocal advocate for diversity and inclusion. He was supportive before, but it was learning the voice.
00:45:48Tamara: It's interesting that that would be happening at that level. I guess you would assume that with VP's that people wouldn't need to find that voice, but I guess that's not the case. It takes courage. You think, oh someone's a VP, whatever.
00:46:12Karen: It's a very good point, because as a VP, I mean all the VP's, yes, we have voice, and these people were outspoken, but they weren't always strong speakers. It's not a negative, but they were getting out of their comfort zone relative to diversity. They were all White able-bodied heterosexual men. That's not my lived experience. It's not the lived experience of 50 percent of the population or more, but that was their world. Then they were getting out of their comfort zone, and part of it is that they didn't really understand. They were supportive of the person--of me, of Shelli, of others--but not really understanding. It was a VP, Sherwood Wilson; he's a VP who made those public comments that you all are men. I mean it was all VP's sitting at that table.
00:47:17Tamara: That's true, they are just used to their--
00:47:20Karen: Their world, right. We have to get out of those comfort zones.
00:47:28Tamara: I hadn't heard the term microaggression, but I think it's something I've seen, experienced, whatever, and then someone can always say, oh I was just joking. That seems a powerful kind of, well I don't know.
00:47:51Karen: Microaggressions are like the name implies, small aggressions. They don't rise to the level of discrimination legally, but they are the subtle put downs, the dismissiveness.
00:48:11Tamara: Yeah, dismissiveness, and that keeps a person in a marginalized… I'm not saying that your position is at all marginalized, but they are trying to keep someone on the margins rather than--
00:48:27Karen: Yes, they did. There were intentions, some intentional and some unintentional to keep me and the grad school marginalized. And it's hard to know, probably were both there, and it goes back to power. Who has the power and how is it used. There is literature out there now on the microaggressions and a lot of things that one can find about defining these and seeing them. They occur everyday, everyday, and it's really unfortunate. It's the bad jokes, I mean a racist, sexist, homophobic joke, is not most of the time it is not illegal, but it is used to put a person in their place with aggression. It is a power play, and it happens all the time. Sometimes we can joke about it and just dismiss it, and I think people are wanting to disrupt that, and we absolutely in society have to disrupt those microaggressions and not let them happen. Especially those who have more our positions where we have more positions of power and more influence, because how I am viewed as a vice president and dean gives me the authority and the responsibility to disrupt the microaggressions as I see them. That is what I had to do as I was talking about the Monday morning meeting. That was part of it. They weren't being aggressive in there, but it was bringing up those kinds of issues. That's a responsibility that we have. People who are not in the same position or have the sphere of influence are the ones who are more vulnerable to the microaggressions. We all are vulnerable, but because one has less power, they can be more hurt by it, and in some ways, I think it's the microaggressions that are so harmful to folks.
00:51:06Tamara: Because you're supposed to take it as a joke. Oh they weren't serious.
00:51:14Karen: Going back to the panel, I mean you saw what happened, and I could have said nothing when Sherwood made his comment about all men. I could have said nothing. He would have eventually figured it out, and the audience was just reacting, and I didn't know whether someone in the audience was going to say something, but because of that I chose not to be silent, because I needed to make a statement, because I needed to stand up for myself, and every other marginalized person in the room. I needed to because that's my peer; he's my peer. I needed to say that, and then when he kept going, I kept going. What you were able to witness is active disruption of his lack of understanding, and then on account of me, him doing microaggression examples of it right there. My other colleagues in between us, they didn't say a thing. They did not say a thing.
00:52:31Tamara: No, they didn't. You would think that they would have, I mean in a more positive world.
00:52:42Karen: And then we could have had if everybody on the panel had been more open to it, we could have had an incredible conversation about what just happened, but we didn't really. The other two guys felt badly afterwards and said something to me.
00:53:04Tamara: Afterwards?
00:53:05Karen: They were trying to cover for Sherwood, [saying he] didn't mean it. I said, I don't care what he meant. It's unacceptable. Those were the words that I used, It's unacceptable. I said that to Sherwood's face, and he knows that, and he's very careful around me.
00:53:23Tamara: But if it's happening to you at the top in a public setting, then it's like--
00:53:36Karen: What is happening to others?
00:53:42Tamara: Or people who don't feel empowered for whatever reason.
00:53:44Karen: Yes. That's why we have to have people who are willing, especially those with the power in power positions, to speak up and disrupt it. It kind of goes back to when we made the decision to come here. If they can do that to us, what are they doing to the other folks who don't have as much of the title and position? That's why I think it is--it was the decision that needed to be made to come here. There's no doubt in my mind. To not come here gave the power away, and so it wasn't scary. Some people have asked was it a scary decision, and for me it was not at all because it was the right thing to do. I hope, and I know from some others that our actions, continuing through today, our actions stand as examples. I'm not setting us up as models at all because I don't mean that, but our behaviors are examples of how people can model their own behavior, develop their own behavior. To use it as examples of how we can effect change.
00:55:31Tamara: Effect change, that's what I was thinking in my mind when you were talking because it's how things can be changed. One of the things I'm hoping when we get to talking about the graduate school, talk more about how we move to transformations of the institution. That's one of the things that it seems like you've done, you are doing here, transforming the institution and effecting change. Then on the other hand, you have June 2010 John Rocovich, once again. appointed to the Board of Visitors, and so it's like change seems to go--. Is it political?
00:56:30Karen: That was all political, because he was reappointed. He actually was chairing the committee to select the new BOV to recommend names to the governor for appointment to the various boards around the state. I think many of us thought that that would keep him out of the running. Then next thing you know he was appointed, but that was political because he was friends with the governor, or political allies. I don't know their relationship. So yes, for me personally it was kind of disappointing to have him be reappointed, but the Board had changed, and some of the same individuals were there or had recently been on the board, so that what happened when he was rector, could never happen again. They put in place some of the rules and regulations. John was friendly to me, and I would see him in the football box. Sometimes he would speak and sometimes not. Whenever we were together in the same place, I would always say hi to him. I was not going to ever let him see how much hurt he caused, and I'm giving him too much credit because it was his actions, but I didn't want him to have any pleasure in knowing that he had actually gotten to me or to Shelli. So that was part of the challenge to truly be above, don't sink to that level. Don't go into a street fight. I can't win a street fight. I don't want to get into a street fight with anybody, so taking the high moral ground. Rocovich was back, now he's off, and one of the comments that I have is although he was among those who didn't want us to come and for me to be in the position, I've lasted longer than he has. I mean he's been on the Board several times now, and he got reappointed, but I'm still here. I got to see on June 14th that he was done.
00:59:22Tamara: One of the other groups that you had mentioned that I wasn't familiar with was DROP, Direct Resistance of Privilege alliance. Is this a group that--
00:59:40Karen: I can't even remember that, that's probably from--
00:59:44Tamara: It's from 2005. They created this PATH, Progressive Action Towards Humanity pledge for the 2005 diversity summit. It was a call for individual and institutional accountability for continuing to change the climate around diversity issues. I just hadn't heard of this DROP alliance, and I wondered if it was something that was still going on.
00:00:10Karen: No, I don't think it's still going on. There were a number of things, like the Justice for [Virginia] Tech, groups that would form and it kind of happens around society in general. Something will come up, and people will get all active, and then it will die out.
00:00:33Tamara: So when you first came to Virginia Tech as a Vice Provost for Graduate Studies and Dean of the Graduate School, what were your goals? That's a big question.
00:00:44Karen: Yeah, a big question. I am going to have to leave shortly so let me just--I'll do a couple things now. I remember actually talking about in my interview here, coming here is really transforming, changing graduate education. The way I have described it in the past is when I was hired by Mark McNamee, he wanted me to come in and clean up is not the right word, but to get the grad school on firm footing and move it forward, and I had no doubt that I could do that, and I said that's fine, but I want to change. I want to transform graduate education. That involved a whole lot of different things, but the way that graduate deans, graduate schools, and graduate education were done in the 20th century served a purpose for the 20th century. It now has to change; we're in the 21st century. What I did at WSU when I started there and brought here was really 21st century education to prepare people for the 21st century not the 20th century. That I have been trying to do with my colleagues around the nation, actually around the world as well.
00:02:33Tamara: Well I have a lot of questions so maybe next time we can pick up from there?
00:02:37Karen: Yes, sounds good.
[End of interview] NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END
