Black Excellence Oral History with Michelle Samuel-Foo, June 23, 2021 (Ms2024-072)

Mika Pagani: Okay. Hello, my name is Mika Pagani and I am interviewing Michelle Samuel-Foo via Zoom for the Black Excellence in STEM [science, technology, engineering, and mathematics] oral history project. Today is June 23. It is 3:04 p.m. eastern time. So, thank you for being here, Dr. Samuel-Foo. Can you start off by stating your full name for me and your date of birth for the record, if you are comfortable?

Michelle Samuel-Foo: My name is Michelle Samuel-Foo and my date of birth is October 13, 1976.

Mika: Thank you. And I’d like to follow up and just ask where were you born? And what were your parents’ names? Would you like to share that?

Michelle: Sure. I was born on the tiny Caribbean island of Trinidad and Tobago. So I’m from Trinidad and Tobago, I’m a Trinidadian. And my parents, my mom, her name was Radica Samuel and I say was because both my parents are now deceased. Her name was Radica Samuel, and my dad is, his name was Winston Samuel.

Mika: Thank you so much for sharing that, and I’m so sorry to hear that. In light of that, would you like to share a joyful memory of your parents that were included in your childhood to honor their memory? Would that make you comfortable?

Michelle: Yeah, sure, I’d be happy to. When I was growing up, I was surrounded by agriculture. I grew up in a rural part of Trinidad and Tobago, and my parents practiced subsistence agriculture, which is slash-and-burn agriculture. You find a plot of land and you clear it and you plant whatever cash crops are available. So I got introduced to agriculture at a very, very young age. I remember one summer in particular, I think I was still in elementary school, when my parents had my siblings and I -- I’m one of a family of -- there are seven children in my family and I’m smack in the middle, so I’m number four. There are three above me and three below me. Four girls and three boys. And I remember that there was this one summer when I think I was probably the youngest in the family. So my younger siblings, the ones after me, weren’t there just yet. But we went to the garden, which was our plot of land, and we had to get this uncured or maybe it was partially cured manure off of the back of a pickup truck, and we have to shovel it into bags and move it manually. And I think I might have been eight years old, nine years old, maybe ten. I was a little girl and doing all this manual labor, but that was kind of my introduction to agriculture. I kind of fell in love with it. It was hard work, don’t get me wrong. We were taking the manure, it was chicken manure, taking it to put at the base of some citrus trees. We grew oranges and tangerines at that time. And I think the majority of my friends were probably having fun summers, but here I was carrying bags of chicken manure to these citrus plants. That’s a really fun memory for me that sticks out and that was kind of my introduction to ag.

Mika: Thank you! Such humble beginnings. Oh my goodness, that’s wonderful. That’s wonderful. So that could have been maybe your early start to education in terms of how agricultural systems work. So with that, would you like to share an early memory of education, and not just ag, but maybe what your schooling was like?

Michelle: Sure. So the way the education system is set up in Trinidad, you attend elementary school, and then you move straight after the fifth grade into high school. So after elementary school, I wrote the exam that we had at that time. It’s a national exam, it’s called the common entrance exam. And after that exam, you had to indicate which high school you wanted to attend. And my number one choice was the local high school in my city, and I was fortunate to be able to get selected to attend that school. So, it’s a competitive exam, you have to score at a certain level. It’s actually a lot of pressure and I think they’ve actually moved away from that. One second please -- [Break in interview] -- sorry, and I was saying, so, I went to Guaico Presbyterian School in Guaico, Trinidad, which is in the northeast part of Trinidad. And then, after fifth grade, I migrated or I passed the common entrance exam and got the opportunity to attend the Northeastern College, which is called a college but it’s actually a secondary school or a high school in Sangre Grande, Trinidad, and that’s where I did all of my high school education before coming to the United States to go to college. I loved high school. Some of my fondest memories were just competing to be the best in high school. I always say that I was very fortunate to be -- you know how in some high schools you have these cliques? -- I see this, even with my own children, in American high schools -- you have cliques, where you’re either part of being the cool kid or you’re the smart kid. And I felt as if I was fortunate to be able to seamlessly move from one group to the next. I definitely took my education very seriously. My friends and I, there were five of us that were very, very close, and we competed against each other to be the best. If I scored 97 in a math exam, then my best friend, Larissa, she would try to outcompete me and she might score 100, or she might score a 99, and then the next exam I wanted to do better. I actually relegate a lot of my study habits, a lot of my early success and my love for education, from back in my high school in Trinidad, where high school was fun and it was great to be recognized as being one of the smartest.

Mika: Thank you. Yes, yes, I love that. Now, I don’t want to assume but maybe I could backtrack quickly. Do you think growing up in that very big family, that fun family, do you think that’s where that competitive nature came from? Do you want to speak more on what it was like with a big family growing up?

Michelle: It was an interesting experience. It wasn’t always fun and games. There was definitely a lot of competition, for sure. And I want to point out that my family, we were poor. We were poor. Resources were very thin. Can you imagine growing up in the 1970s or the 1980s with a family of nine? And my dad was the only one that worked outside of the home. My mom sold whatever we grew in the garden at the equivalent of a farmer’s market. But resources were poor. There were times when even to go to high school, I didn’t have all my books. I didn’t have notebooks. I certainly didn’t have textbooks. Nothing was excessive, we did not have anything like disposable income. But I think all of that kinda spurred a survival instinct in me where in order to be successful, you had to work hard, and you had to try to get things right the first time, because there may not be a second chance or a second opportunity to say, I’ll do it the next time. There may not be a next time. So, all of these experiences, I think, fostered my drive and my push to just excel as much as I can.

Mika: And excel you did, oh my goodness, what a story. So going back to high school, when you were doing so well, did you feel a natural pull to like biology and science? Was that the immediate thing that you liked?

Michelle: So, there’s an interesting story there. I actually didn’t know that you could become an entomologist as a professional. I enjoyed science. I really loved biology, in particular. And I enjoyed chemistry very much. I also had really, really excellent high school teachers for these subjects. And I often help my son, who is actually getting ready to start his own college experience this fall, he’ll be going to the University of Virginia, actually, as a freshman, yeah, but as he was preparing for his AP [advanced placement] biology exam, I would help him study sometimes. And he would ask me questions, even for chemistry, and I’m amazed that I still remember some of the -- well not the biology so much because I teach that also -- but the chemistry. I still remember some of the facts that I learned, and that’s well over 20 years ago. And I think it’s because my teachers really made such a good impact. They had such a good impact on the way that they presented the material, and it caused me to really not just study for an exam but to learn the material and the fact that I can recall some of it today, I think, is a testament to that.

Mika: Definitely, definitely, couldn’t agree more. So, now, would you like to speak on the transition of having gone to high school in the area you grew up and then moving to the U.S. and what that was like? I’m sure there’s a story there.

Michelle: Yeah, there’s definitely a story there, and I don’t know if I answered your question, the previous question that you asked me just now, was I naturally drawn to science, I think is what you asked me. I definitely loved biology, I loved chemistry, I did love the sciences. But at one point in time, I thought I wanted to be a journalist. I loved writing, and I still enjoy writing. So, just science writing is something that I could see myself doing maybe when I retire or maybe as a second career. But I was always interested in the sciences, for sure. So, to tell you about my transition or my journey from Sangre Grande, Trinidad, to the United States, so, when you graduate high school in Trinidad, you have to write what’s known as CXC (Caribbean Examination Council) exams and GCSE (General Certificate of Secondary Education) exams. So there are O levels and then if you do well enough with your O level exams, you get admitted to do an additional two years of high school, which is your advanced level exams. When I completed high school, and finished my GCSE exams, I wasn’t sure what my next steps would be. Both of my parents didn’t attend college. In fact, my dad had only a third grade education. So, they were not able to really guide me in terms of university or a career or education. They just always instilled that we all needed to work hard at our education, or whatever it is that we were doing. So, I was kind of on my own to figure things out. As fate would have it, I had gotten a job right after high school working at Republic Bank, as a teller in Tunapuna, Trinidad. I was working as a cashier or a teller. And we worked various shifts, you either worked the morning shift or the afternoon shift. One day, I remember taking my cash till and going to sit next to this lady or a girl that had been working at the bank, so she was senior to me, and she was just telling me about this exam that she was going to take that I think you can get information about it at the U.S. Embassy in Trinidad. And I said, Jacent, what are you talking about? She said, if you score well enough on this exam, you can get a scholarship to go to college in the United States. And I said, what do you talk, like is this real? And back then there was no internet yet. I didn’t have a home computer. I didn’t have access to the internet. And I had no idea what she was talking about. Information wasn’t as forthcoming. I couldn’t just Google to find out about colleges, or about the SAT exams or ACT, and it turned out that she was talking about the SAT exam. And that was the first time I had ever heard about it. I was already maybe a year and a half post high school. And I said, okay, I’d love to go study in the United States. Higher education, a university education in Trinidad at that time, was not free. And there was no way that I could afford the tuition to go to our local university in Trinidad. And there were not scholarships readily available to regular people like myself. So, when I heard about this exam in the United States, I was like, oh, let me give this a try. And so, Mika, it’s unbelievable when I think about it. I went with Jacent, we visited the U.S. Embassy. I got one of those SAT study books to learn about the exam. I would spend every evening just kinda perusing, you know, just kind of refreshing myself to become familiar with the format of the exam. But I signed up for the test. I went to the University in Trinidad to sit, it was a paper-based exam. This was almost two years now outside of high school, and I took the exam, and there was no turning back after that. I got a really good score, good enough that I won a scholarship to come to Brewton-Parker College in Mount Vernon, Georgia. It’s a small private Baptist institution, and I learned about that particular school when there was a college fair in Port of Spain, Trinidad, sponsored by the U.S. Embassy, and we had several universities from the United States come down specifically to recruit students from the Caribbean, students from my island. And again, I went with my friend Jacent. I had just received my SAT scores, and I’m talking to the different recruiters, and several of them were interested, but I specifically was asking about scholarships for international students because I didn’t have the money to pay. And the only institution that really followed up with me after the college fair was over was Brewton-Parker College. And I still remember the name of the recruiter. Her first name was Larissa, which was also the name of my best friend, so that was a neat coincidence. And they actually mailed me, well, several universities sent via regular postal mail, the brochures, the colorful brochures showing all the happy faces of the students and telling you about all the different majors. And in addition to sending me the brochure, the admissions recruiter from Brewton-Parker College sent me a t-shirt that had the name of the university on it. And I was just so proud to wear it. And within, I think I took the exam in October, I had my results in November, and by March of the following year, we were still on the quarter system, I was on my way to the United States to study and to be a freshman at this college.

Mika: Wow, I love that. So, it sounds really like your love of learning and education took you that far. It wasn’t that you were seeking the end goal to go to the U.S. It’s more of you just wanted to go to college and that’s where it ended up and where it took you. So, thank you for sharing. That’s wonderful to hear about. So, I would ask then, what was it like to go to college in the U.S. having grown up not here?

Michelle: When I landed in Atlanta, Georgia, the same recruiter, she was picking up a number of students, not just myself. So, there was a van or a bus that came to pick up all the students that were gonna be attending that college. And I remember it was pretty late. I had been traveling all day. This was my first time traveling to the United States by myself. I was twenty-one years old, or twenty-two years old, I think. When I was leaving home, Mika, my entire extended family came to the airport to see me off because no one in my family had ever left home before. So I was kind of like a trailblazer in my family, when I think about it. And I don’t know what I can say was my motivation, other than really, really being excited at the opportunity to go to college. I thought that my schooling, my formal education, that career was over once I graduated high school in Trinidad because finances would have limited me otherwise. But once I had this opportunity to come to the United States, I latched on to that and made rapid with my efforts to get to the United States. So, I arrive in Atlanta, and it’s late, and I’m tired. And I eventually link up with the other students and I link up with Larissa. And I’m thinking it’s a short drive ‘cause spatial awareness -- Trinidad’s a tiny island, you can get from one end of the island to the next in thirty minutes. We are in this vehicle for, I don’t know, maybe two and a half hours, maybe longer, maybe three hours, maybe more. I can’t even remember. I’m just thinking, where are we going? I had no idea you could travel physically in a car for so long. That was a little bit of a shock to me. Number one, to be in a vehicle for so long. Number two, in Trinidad on cable television, when you think about the United States, at that time you were only given visions of New York City, you know, skyscrapers, big cities. I had no idea that there were rural parts to the United States. And Mount Vernon, Georgia, definitely fits the description of a small Southern rural town. And so, that was a second shocker for me. When I woke up the next morning, because we got in pretty late that night, maybe about after midnight for sure, so we got to our dorms, we slept, woke up the next morning, and I’m exploring, looking for the street lights and skyscrapers, and there were none. There were none to be seen. And I think I was in a little bit of a daze. But I will say, moving or transitioning from a rural town in Trinidad and Tobago and moving to a small town in South Georgia was actually the best thing for me in hindsight. At that time, I didn’t know it, but there was nothing to do but go to school and study. And again, that same drive to be the best in my classes, it just kicked back into gear. And that’s kind of what I did, and I worked really hard. I took as many classes as they would allow me to take as an overload, and I went to school in the summer. I took as many classes as I could. And that worked in my favor, because I was able to finish my undergraduate degree in a little over two and a half years. Yeah, and I didn’t have any credits that came in from high school or anything like that. But I will say, taking seven or eight classes at a time, there was nothing else to do but study, and I loved it. So, it was not a chore for me. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed taking tests. I was one of these driven nerdy people that just loved it. And that was a perfect environment for me. And I graduated summa cum laude. So, I didn’t just take the classes, I excelled in them. I did well. That college was actually the perfect segue for me to enter the United States.

Mika: Wow, who would have thought? That was so reflective of you. That’s amazing to think that you probably wanted -- or not wanted, I don’t want to paraphrase -- but that you thought that you were going to enter in this big city hub and it was just this microcosm of a small town but it ended up working out perfectly.

Michelle: Perfectly, perfectly. Yep.

Mika: Amazing. So, in attending that college, again, with the science theme and how you’re an entomologist now, did you get your first introduction to entomology during that time? Or did that take some time?

Michelle: I actually did not. I was a biology major. And this was a liberal arts school, a liberal arts college. My journey to entomology was a little bit indirect. So, after earning my bachelor’s degree in biology -- again, remember, I’m figuring out a lot of this on my own, I’m living in the United States, my dad had already passed away at this point, and I’m just kind of figuring things out on my own as I go through -- there was a professor at Brewton-Parker College who actually came in during my senior year as the department chair. His name was Dr. McMillan. He asked me, I still remember, I think I was taking a genetics exam, maybe one of my final exams within the semester as I was getting ready to graduate, he said, Michelle, what are your plans when you’re finished with, what’s your degree? And I had no firm plans. I thought I would probably go back to either go back to Trinidad or try to get a job. And he said, have you considered graduate school? And I had never heard the term graduate school before. I didn’t know that after your bachelor’s degree, you could have postgraduate studies. You could go on to earn advanced degrees and become an expert or specialist in a particular area. I didn’t know that there was something called an M.S. degree or a Ph.D. degree. And he took the time and he explained this to me, and he said, I think you would be an excellent candidate for graduate school. And after he told me that, that’s when I started to think about graduate school. And he said, there is a colleague of mine from the University of Georgia that is looking for a master’s student, and I’d like you to go up and talk with him. And so I said, sure, I would be happy to go visit. And I went to visit Dr. Johnson, Dr. Jerry Johnson, who was a wheat breeder at the University of Georgia on their Griffin campus. And I didn’t know that I was on an interview to be his graduate student, Mika, it’s so funny. And I’m not overly religious, but I swear, God, He had some plans for me and for my life. I didn’t know. I wasn’t dressed for an interview, I thought I was just going to go see his program, see what he’s doing, see if I’m interested in it. I took my transcripts with me. Dr. McMillan had obviously told him, Dr. Johnson, that I was a prudent student, a serious student, very responsible with my studies. So, he had no problems there. And he said, you need to take the GRE [graduate record examinations] exam. I had never heard about the GRE exam. I signed up for it. He said you needed to score, I think, a minimum of one thousand in order to get accepted into the graduate program. I signed up for it right away after leaving him that day. And as soon as I got my score, I completed the application and I applied to the University of Georgia [UGA] and got in. UGA wasn’t the only school. After I learned about graduate school, of course, now I’m exploring my options. I applied to Howard University in Washington, D.C., and also Georgia State University, and I got into all three programs. But UGA, I decided, number one, because it was closest, I was already in Georgia. I had the opportunity to visit with Dr. Johnson and to see his program and I was very interested in studying and learning from him. And actually, as a master’s student at UGA, this was when I had the opportunity to take my first entomology class. And on my committee, Dr. Buntin was an entomologist that served on my committee. And for my master’s degree, I actually did a project looking at hessian fly in wheat. And that was my introduction to entomology. And I enjoyed my first entomology classes so much while I was at Georgia that as I was getting ready to complete my master’s degree, Dr. John All, who ended up being my major professor for my Ph.D., he talked to me. He said, Michelle, I think you would be a really good candidate, because I did well in his classes. He said, have you considered a Ph.D. in entomology? And I hadn’t and he offered an assistantship. And he said you needed to apply. I graduated my undergraduate degree in December, my master’s degree in December of 2003, and when I finished my Ph.D. -- it was always in December, so December, Christmas time, is really special to me. But that’s how I ended up studying entomology in college.

Mika: Oh my. So, it’s like you almost fell into it, it fell onto you, and it’s not even that you sought after it. So, that’s amazing. And look at you now. So now that we’re to the Ph.D. part, would you like to go into perhaps your Ph.D. studies and what that led to? Did you consider yourself an entomologist at that point?

Michelle: When I was in graduate school at UGA, I started to feel more and more comfortable considering myself as an entomologist and as an expert in entomology. I was very involved as a graduate student with our extension and outreach graduate student club. And that experience showed me that entomology didn’t just have to be a rigid science. Being involved in extension in particular, I remember we would have events at the botanical gardens in Athens, where the H.O. Lund Club, which is a graduate student club at UGA, we would have the opportunity to showcase either our labs or our insect zoo or just talk. They asked for students to volunteer to lead a particular station. And those experiences made such a big impact on me being able to liaise with the general public and seeing the faces of these little kids light up or even their parents sometimes, if they saw or held a hissing cockroach in their hand or a giant lubber grasshopper. Those experiences were so remarkable to me that it really etched in my mind. And I think, although entomology wasn’t my goal from the beginning, as I started to really embrace the fact that I was developing as an entomologist, I fell in love with it, and I still love it today.

Mika: Wonderful, wonderful. So, in talking about extension, and I’m thinking back to how you began this interview talking about how you didn’t even see yourself as becoming an entomologist, but perhaps journalism instead, it sounds like you have this natural tie to science communication. Is that right?

Michelle: I would think so. I think I enjoy connecting with ordinary citizens that, sometimes people when they say, it’s nice to meet you Michelle, what do you do? And I say I’m an entomologist, they say you’re an archeologist? What are you? And I have to explain that entomology is the study of insects and you can be a medical entomologist, you can be a veterinary entomologist, you can be a vegetable entomologist, you can work in molecular genetics in entomology, there’s so many different aspects to it. And I think that just being able to connect and to educate individuals about what it is that entomologists do has just really, really been rewarding for me. I think also that -- well, let me put it like this -- I always say when I explain what it is that I do, I say, if you think that fresh fruits and vegetables are an important part of your diet, your overall health and wellness, when you walk into your local grocery store, when you walk into Kroger or Winn Dixie or Publix grocery store, if, when you walk in, one of the first avenues that you take is the fresh fruits and vegetable aisle, which I always do, and you see this huge variety of fresh fruits, vegetables that are available to you, know that entomologists had a direct hand in making this variety of food choices available to you. It’s because of the work that entomologists do that you have such a huge selection of choices. Whether you’re a vegetarian or whether you’re a meat eater, just being able to have a variety to choose from, you can thank an entomologist because we probably worked on pest issues or worked with a commercial farmer or helped develop a pesticide, on whether it’s a conventional or a biopesticide, that helped make a particular grower successful with his commodity. And as a result of that, through the supply chain, you now as the consumer have a wide variety of choices available to feed your 3-year-old or even your 1-year-old that you are now introducing to solids.

Mika: I love that metaphor. Absolutely. Oh my goodness, I love that. Thank you for sharing that, it’s so true. Entomology can so be at the heart of so many different interdisciplinary type of sciences. So, thank you for just stating that. I appreciate it. So, I would perhaps maybe just want to go back quickly to flesh out more details. So you worked on hessian flies. What was your next project then? Were you still following with that sort of agricultural sector? Did you change?

Michelle: So, I worked on hessian fly in wheat. My major professor was a wheat breeder, Dr. Johnson. Dr. John All at the University of Georgia, he was on the main campus in Athens, and he worked really closely with a soybean breeder. So, my master’s degree is actually in plant breeding, it’s not even in entomology. So, my master’s degree is in agronomy. So, it’s plant breeding and molecular genetics. So, when I was becoming a Ph.D. student for Dr. All, I was introduced to Dr. Roger Boerma, also at UGA, who was a soybean breeder. And Dr. Boerma and Dr. All served as my co-advisors for my Ph.D., and Dr. All brought in the entomology part to the soybean breeding. And I worked on, for my Ph.D., I looked at quantitative trait loci, so QTLs, in soybean, looking at insect-resistant QTLs on some elite soybean lines. Oh my gosh, I had to pull that way out, it’s been over 12 years. Yeah, yeah. So, I was still in plant breeding, but still looking at entomological aspects of plant breeding, and in this case, it was soybean breeding. I spent many summers in the plains of Georgia, Plains, Georgia. That’s where the former U.S. President Jimmy Carter is from. We would leave very early in the morning -- as all entomologists that work in the field know fully well what field work is like, so we would leave very early in the morning, and before that sun got too hot, because sometimes we had to spray trials or just scout cotton or scout soybean.

Mika: Wow. So, it sounds like you’ve always been not on the outside of entomology, but like, again, with the interdisciplinary it’s not that you’ve ever stayed solely in entomology, but you’ve been kind of working on different projects that intersect with that. That’s really interesting to hear.

Michelle: And what’s interesting, because I love the way that you describe that, finding the intersection of entomology with other disciplines is what helped me land my first job, when I finished my Ph.D., at the University of Florida. So, as I was writing my dissertation and getting ready to complete my Ph.D., I started applying for jobs, because as an international student you only have, I think it’s either 12 or 18 months where you can legally work in the United States to gain some practical experience or practical training. It’s called OPT training [Optional Practical Training]. So, you have to get permission from the U.S. immigration services in order to work as a foreign student. And so, the clock starts ticking as soon as you’ve completed your degree. And if you don’t have a job, in a certain timeframe, I forget exactly what that is, you’re gonna have to exit the United States because you’re no longer a student. So, you’re in a little bit of a gray area. So, me knowing that the clock would start ticking once I had my degree in hand, I started applying for jobs because it was very important for me to have a position to move into to maximize on that 12 or 18 months of experience that I was allowed to have. And so, I applied for this position at the University of Florida to work as the IR-4 southern region coordinator. For what IR-4 does, IR-4 is the minor use pesticide program. So, it’s sponsored by USDA [United States Department of Agriculture] and NIFA [National Institute of Food and Agriculture]. And IR-4 helps to procure sustainable pest management solutions for growers of specialty crops. So what that means is that if you are a citrus grower, or if you’re a grower for tomatoes, any fresh fruits and vegetables, sometimes these pest control companies or the chemical industry, they wouldn’t necessarily put all the resources into developing pesticides for this small market. So, specialty crop by definition is one that is farmed on 300,000 acres or less. If you think about Florida, or the southern region, where citrus is really important, it’s usually farmers that have smaller holdings as compared to the wheat farmers or the corn or the soybeans, the row crops. And so, once I accepted this position with IR-4 it wasn’t just entomology. Entomology was a big part of it but there was also horticulture, there was also weed science, and so, because I had experience not only in entomology, but in working with plant breeders, and being able to understand a little bit of nematology, or be exposed to a little bit of nematology -- there were other graduate students in my lab that were working on nematology projects associated with soybean -- or even just looking at the agronomics of it, it helped me to understand my role as the regional coordinator, because it wasn’t just purely a research-based position in entomology, but I had responsibility for all these other disciplines as well. And so, within short order, I could speak intelligently about glyphosate to control palmer amaranth, or a big weed science issue in tropical fruits in ditches, or I can talk about damping-off that you might see in certain crops. You know, things in plant pathology that you may not necessarily as an entomology student be aware of, like sclerotium rot or all these plant pathology issues. But just being able to navigate from one discipline to the next, and being comfortable in that arena throughout graduate school, and then being able to do that, well, it required that I’d be comfortable doing that in my job as the IR-4 regional coordinator.

Mika: Wow. Okay so, it’s like you over the years developed this holistic view of agronomy and you were able to get your hand in every single subdiscipline so that you could be successful at that job. That’s incredible. So --

Michelle: And I --

Mika: Yeah --

Michelle: Sorry, I was just gonna say you’re exactly right. And I’m just being reflective as we’re talking here. When I took the position at the University of Florida, I was on the main campus in Gainesville, the individual that had held the position prior to me was retiring. And Dr. Meister had been in that role for well over thirty years, before I was born, in fact, he was doing this job. So, I had some very large shoes [laughs] to fill. But as you get to know me, Mika, there is no task that is going to be too large for me. And when I hear no, no doesn’t mean that this opportunity is closed or this is no longer up for discussion, it just means that you have to look for another way to get that task accomplished. So, I definitely see the glass half full, and it was a little bit intimidating, starting off being in charge of the entire southern region, which was thirteen states. And not only am I a minority, but I’m also a female, and I’m younger, so I had several items that were different than my predecessor, which I think meant that in order to gain the trust and the confidence of some very important industry folks, and our stakeholder base, our growers and our grower representatives from all these very important commodity groups, meant that my personality had to be such that I could convince some, the head of the Florida Strawberry Growers Association to have an audience with them, because I want to talk about IR-4 can help your growers, I want to find out what the issues are. And just, thank God, my personality is such that I can make friends with whomever. I can talk to the CEO [chief executive officer] of a company very comfortably as much as I can joke around with the janitor that comes to pick up the trash. And that has worked really, really well for me. I appreciate the value in everyone and just being able to relate to people on their level and communicate science in a way that is not intimidating. But using common language and being able to explain well, this is why GMOs [genetically modified organisms] are something that you shouldn’t just dismiss because you read something on Instagram, or you read something on social media that’s saying this is bad for you or try to find out what the source is and talk to people that actually study and work in this arena. Let’s make up our individual minds but based on having qualified and reputable information at hand to make a decision. Don’t just, don’t just believe the hype about whatever is trending on social media.

[Laughter]

Mika: You’re so right. Yes, thank you for saying that. And oh my goodness, thank you. I appreciate you stating how the intersection of your identities informed the work that you did and the stakes that were high for you, but you went higher. So, I really appreciate that. Would you like to speak more to that experience on how having marginalized identities and being in that job that you were in and what that was like. What was that experience like for you?

Michelle: So, I want to talk a little bit about being a Black student at the University of Georgia studying plant breeding and then studying entomology. So, throughout my graduate career, at the time -- it’s so interesting, Mika, at that time, I didn’t know that I was the only Black student in my classes a lot of times; it just, it wasn’t a factor for me. Maybe part of that is because growing up in Trinidad, race was never really much of an issue in my family. Or I can’t say that I -- maybe it was naivety, I don’t know, whatever it was, it worked well for me. I only started to realize that I was different from my fellow students, and even from the instructors -- I don’t think I ever had a Black instructor or even -- I don’t know. I don’t remember. I don’t think you’d forget if you had a Black instructor, someone that looks like you. I don’t remember having one, ever, in graduate school. Certainly not when I was a master’s student. I was definitely the only Black student and the only Black female. When I was a Ph.D. student, there were two of us in entomology, Alani Taylor. [Alani] was a master’s student in entomology and I was getting my Ph.D., and she and I became study buddies. And I think it was at that point that I kind of realized that we were kind of developing a very close bond. But I was friends with all the other students in my -- we all volunteered with the Lund club. If our labs were next to each other, I would just walk out of my lab and go have lunch or chat with Jesse, who was in the forest entomology lab next door. But it’s only now, really, that, when we think about and we hear so much about social justice and the difficult times that a lot of people have with race relations in the United States, because it’s definitely a touchy issue, I think that I just have to say from my own experiences, have largely been very positive. And I use the fact that I was a little bit different -- well, very different -- from my fellow students in graduate school, I used it to my advantage. I promise you, Mika, every professor in every class that I took, remembered me. Not just because Michelle Foo, she talks a little bit different. I’m Trinidadian so my accent is a little bit different. And you know, she’s darker than everyone else. But she’s also a very serious student, and she’s going to ask questions, and if Michelle doesn’t understand something, she’s going to come to your office after hours and ask you to explain it. Which professor is not going to remember a student that does that? So I used those things to my advantage. And when it was time to get recommendation letters for the job that I eventually got, everyone agreed to because everyone knew me. And I just think that you use the cards that you have to your favor, and you don’t say, oh woe is me and gosh I’m so uncomfortable because everything is so different. That has not been my approach and that’s not to make light of the fact that everybody’s experience is different, and some people really struggle with social issues and social identity and being in an environment that is different than where you were brought up from. I just used it to my benefit, and it worked out for me.

Mika: Wow, what a resilient spirit. Wow, wonderful to hear. So, in all of that and now you’re an assistant professor, do you want to speak on that journey that you took from that first job being the regional manager, and then where you are now?

Michelle: So, I worked at the University of Florida from 2009 until 2017. And the reason -- I never thought that I would leave UF [University of Florida]. UF is an institution. Their entomology department is probably -- if not the number one -- one of the top entomology departments in the United States. And I wasn’t in the entomology department, I was in the food science department. The IR-4 program is located in the food science program. But I worked very closely with a number of entomologists and just being affiliated with the University of Florida is very prestigious. The reason that I left that job, it was because I was going through some personal challenges. There were some changes to my immediate family, and I needed to leave Gainesville, and I applied for a job at Alabama State University and was offered the position almost that same day. Right. And I was very nervous about leaving the University of Florida to go to an HBCU [Historically Black Colleges and Universities institution] for a number of reasons. Number one, I had never attended an HBCU so I didn’t know the culture per se. And I worried about how I would fit in. Because although I’m a minority myself, I sound different, I look different. And I just wondered as to how I would fit in. Number two, Alabama State is not a land grant institution. So, it is a comprehensive HBCU. So, it’s a historically Black college and university, and agriculture, they don’t have a Department of Agriculture, they don’t have an entomology program, they don’t have an agronomy program. It’s not heavy, or it just, it’s not part of the curriculum. So because I have a bachelor’s degree in biology, and with my terminal degree in entomology, I could fit into the biology program at ASU [Alabama State University], which is in Montgomery, Alabama. And that’s kind of where I needed to be because of my family situation. Once they offered me the position, and I explained to my boss at the time what was going on and why I needed to make the change, he understood. And I had about a month or so to get ready for this transition. I was moving from managing a field program to being in the classroom full time. And when you’re at an HBCU, if it’s not one of those 1890 land grant institutions, you’re going to be expected to teach a number of classes. And a normal load is twelve credit hours, so that works out to four classes. And that, yeah, that is, that was a major shift for me. Because I had done some teaching when I was at UF, but it was mainly guest lecturing or co-teaching with another professor in a pesticides class or an IPM [integrated pest management] type class. But now, I was responsible not for one class, but for four classes. And a lot of these were freshmen biology classes. So, students that are just transitioning from high school that may not have the study skills or the maturity of graduate students or working with professionals. So, in addition to the family changes that I was going through, there were just a lot of moving parts. But I thank God every day. In pure, I say Michelle-fashion, I saw that this was something that I had to do, and I would spend weeks, weekends, late at nights just getting ready for my classes. So, if I had to teach a chapter on photosynthesis, which everybody knows photosynthesis, but when you have to teach it to someone else, you remember taking the class many years ago, but then you have to prepare the PowerPoint slides. It’s not like I’m talking about insect taxonomy or I’m talking about integrated pest management, which I can talk off of the top of my head. But here I’m teaching freshman biology or my first semester I even taught a class on vascular plants. It was almost like I was a student also. So, I had to read the textbook, make notes, make sure I understood the concepts, so that I can talk intelligently about it to the students that are just -- they’re sitting and they’re listening to every word that you say. And that first semester, Mika, I was like a chicken with its head cut off. ‘Cause I have three children of my own, and at that time, they were all in three different schools. There was just a lot going on. But I will say, I loved it. The students at Alabama State University, they’re just very, very real, and it’s really caused me -- being at an HBCU -- to really reflect on how blessed that I’ve been and to also understand what an important role that I have, as not only as a mentor, as how important it is for young, female, Black, African American women to see me as a mentor, see me as a success story. It’s really driven home when you’re at a smaller school, I think, because not only am I a professor, I’m a counselor. Some of my students, Mika, have had issues. They’ve dealt with homelessness, they’ve dealt with food insecurity and pregnancy. These issues are not unique to one particular type of institution. I’m sure at the University of Georgia and UF, there were probably instances of this. But because I was in a different role, I was now engaging almost daily with young men and young women that are part of an underserved population. I quickly realized that I needed to be not only on my A game, in terms of my teaching, but just in terms of whatever I was saying, because these students are so impressionable, they’re listening to every single thing that you’re talking about. I remember when I was talking about -- giving the lesson on reproduction, for instance. I went and I researched the incidence of STDs [sexually transmitted diseases] in Montgomery County, which is where I live now, and it’s actually one of the highest in the state of Alabama. And I’m sharing the live statistics from the Department of Health with my students, and they’re like in awe. And I’m saying, yes, this is why you have to be informed and you have to protect yourself. And I’m their professor but I’m also truly a mentor and giving them tools to help them make better choices for themselves as young adults, giving them information to take back to their families as to why preventative medicine is really important, talking about a CPAP [continuous positive airway pressure] machine and having students share, yes, Dr. Foo, I’ve heard about this because my grandmother has one. Just relating with students on a very personal level and that has been tremendously rewarding for me. And my experience at Alabama State in this role has been superb for me, it really has. And that fear that I had about would I fit in, this is a new role, this is different -- we’re not talking pesticides, we’re not talking pest management -- it’s been tremendous. And I will say so, because I’m an entomologist and agriculture is so important to me, of course I never let go of entomology. I still remain really active with my local society, the Southeastern Branch of the Entomological Society of America. I continue to attend the meeting every year. And I’ve encouraged my students also to participate. And this is probably the first time that this HBCU in the South has ever had representation at the Entomological Society of America. I feel really proud about that. And this year in particular, I think I told you before, Mika, I was elected to be the President of the Southeastern Branch. And it’s a huge honor not just for myself, but also for my institution, to have a Black female serving in this role at a smaller college. The role is normally relegated to individuals from bigger universities, from UF, from UGA, probably even Virginia Tech, you know, the big names. But I maintain that with entomology you can be impactful and you can influence any aspect of the science, whether it’s extension or urban entomology at Alabama State. I’ve developed an urban teaching garden which I got grant funded. Part of my narrative, it was to introduce students at a non-land grant HBCU to entomology and be able to successfully establish an entomology lab on campus. When we have our STEM outreach days, very much like extension, developed an insect zoo to have when all the students from the local community come in. They’re scared to death to hold a cockroach or to see the hissing cockroach or even to look at the pinned specimens, they’re afraid to touch them. So, when I talk to these students, for some of them this is the first time that they’re ever hearing about entomology as a profession. When you see a bug, you don’t just have to immediately have to kill it. There are beneficial insects and this is why you want to encourage them in your garden. It truly is an opportunity to outreach on a very personal and a very impactful way. And I love it.

Mika: Oh my goodness. Thank you so much for sharing. It’s as if you knew what I was going to ask you. I was gonna ask you about moments of joy and oh did your face light up when you spoke about all those things. I’m so happy to celebrate those accomplishments with you and that you can state them because that’s truly what I want this to be, is a celebratory moment of how far you’ve come and what you’ve achieved. And oh my goodness, that list goes on. So, I’m happy to share this with you. Thank you!

Michelle: Thank you. Thank you.

Mika: Yeah. I think we’re almost at the end. That truly was my last question. If there are other moments of joy that you would like to end on with me, I would love to hear more.

Michelle: There’s nothing that immediately comes to mind. Just a couple of things though, just reflections. When I talk about the fact that, I almost, fortuitously happened into entomology and have managed to make a successful career out of it, I feel as if my path to entomology has not been traditional by any means. You’ll hear about some entomologists, talking about how when they were five years old they started collecting insects and their love and their joy for insects was spurred from that moment onwards. That wasn’t necessarily the case with me. Last year, when I gave the Founders’ Memorial Lecture at the National ESA [Entomological Society of America] meeting, the subject of my lecture was Dr. Ernie Harris. He was one of those individuals that talked about, even from his very early childhood, how entomology has always been fascinating for him. And he remembered collecting insects with his mom in their vegetable garden in the Midwest. Although that wasn’t my experience, I still remember being outside and appreciating agriculture as a whole. Entomology is one aspect of agriculture. But just growing houseplants, and being in the garden. Just being outside, I remember how important that is. And now that I’m a mother, myself -- I have three sons, and I mentioned my eldest is getting ready to -- and he’s not studying entomology, he’s not studying agriculture. He’s actually going to be studying computer science -- but even with my own children, and with the students, when I’m teaching a class at Alabama State, I talk about my family and my children often. And it’s almost as if, by the end of the semester, my students become aware of Yohan, Oliver, and Noah. My Foo Fighters, as I call them. I think exposure and awareness is so important, Mika. Because I remember me being a bright student in Trinidad but not knowing, not having had the exposure. There was no after-school lessons for music or swimming. I didn’t have the exposure, but I still had this innate ability to do well and to strive to do well. So I think about that, even with being in a place where there’s a lot of poverty or where there is perhaps limited resources for families, I think about what I can do in terms of exposure, to help make other students aware of the fact that whatever your situation is today or whatever your situation is now, doesn’t necessarily dictate that this is the same path that you have to follow throughout your adolescence into young adulthood and into adulthood. You can forge your own path. I think it’s so important to choose your friends correctly. It’s so important to choose your mentors and to have a mentor, have somebody that can give you advice as to classes or careers or whatever it is that you’re interested in. Or maybe even personal issues, talk to you about food choices, exercise, wellness, just whatever is important to you. Exposure is really, really important, and I take that very, very seriously. And speaking about wellness, I’m a big proponent, Mika, of being well balanced. So, oftentimes as an academic, you can spend ten hours in a lab writing a manuscript, reading a paper, looking at data, counting insects, sorting insects, doing microscope work. And I certainly appreciate the importance of that. But I also appreciate the importance of getting up and taking a walk, stretching your legs, going for a jog, maybe going for a run, going to the gym, doing some yoga, some Zumba, whatever it is that is your interest or holds your interest. It’s important to be well balanced. Don’t just excel in academics only and leave your family neglected, leave your social life neglected. I think it’s really important to develop healthy relationships as adults, because you’re not always going to be at a national society meeting where you have a couple days to shine. You want to be happy in every aspect of your life. So striking that balance, exercising, making good choices in terms of your health and your wellness is just as important. I would say taking care of your family, your children, spending time with your children, is just as important as getting that big grant and publishing that peer-reviewed paper.

Mika: Thank you so much. Thank you. Those lasting words are so incredibly important and something that I need to remind myself as well. So, I appreciate it. And I would just like to take a moment just to extend my thanks to you ‘cause you briefly touched on representation and what that means and how it brings you joy. Just on the other end of that, in being the Black femme entomologist I am as a graduate student, and seeing you as the president of a society that I’m a part of, that just brings me joy. So, thank you. I just wanted to take a second to say that.

Michelle: Thank you so much, Mika. I take my role and my responsibilities with everything that I do, I take it really, really seriously because I want to leave a legacy for individuals like yourself. Mika, when you’re finished, there’s no reason Mika can’t be the president of the national ESA society. It doesn’t matter what institution you’re at. What’s important is that you take your role seriously as a volunteer, and you take your science seriously. And you work hard and people recognize and you develop a reputation for yourself of excellence. And you can be working for industry, you can be working for the federal government, but there’s no limit to how successful you can be as an entomologist. Whether you follow a traditional path of, after your Ph.D., you’re a postdoc, and then you become a faculty member. Or if you go to industry directly, or work for the federal government, or work for a minority-serving institution, you just have to make the most of the opportunities that you’re given and find that area where you fit in best. And where you’re gonna remain sane. [Laughter]

Mika: Beautifully said, beautifully said. Thank you so incredibly much for this time.

Michelle: Thanks, Mika. This has been great. This has been wonderful.

Mika: Yeah. And I guess we’re at the end, unfortunately. But I’ll ask you, is there anything else you would like to share now that we’re at the closing of our interview? Anything else you would like to leave off with? Maybe a mantra of sorts, I mean, you just kind of did but?

Michelle: I don’t think that I have anything else to add other than I want to say thank you for this opportunity to be part of this wonderful project, which is clearly going to be a part of my legacy, and I imagine my grandchildren, which is really, really far into the future, but I imagine my grandchildren, when they want to hear about what their grandmother did for work or as a professional, as an entomologist, they’ll be able to go and listen to this oral history story. I just think that this is so wonderful. So, I thank Virginia Tech and I thank all of you for taking the initiative to get this put together. And I can’t wait to listen to it.

Mika: And I cannot wait to transcribe this. Thank you so much. Thank you again.

Michelle: Mika, thank you so much. Well, we didn’t do too bad, an hour and fifteen minutes, good.

Mika: No at all. Thank you.

[End of Interview] 

Ms2021-001;Pagani; Page 2

Ms2021-001;Pagani; Page 1