Black Excellence Oral History with Ela-Sita Carpenter, January 31, 2022 (Ms2024-072)

Amber Wendler: ​​My name is Amber Wendler, and I’m interviewing Dr. Ela-Sita Carpenter via Zoom for the Black Excellence in STEM [science, technology, engineering, and mathematics] oral history project. Today is January 31, 2022. Can you start off by stating your full name and date of birth for the record?

Ela-Sita Carpenter: Sure. Dr. Ela-Sita Carpenter, and I was born October 23, 1983.

Amber: Thanks, and can you start off by telling me a little bit about your childhood, where you grew up, and what that was like?

Ela-Sita: Sure! I was born in Baltimore, Maryland. I lived in a corner rowhouse in northwest Baltimore with a family of six people. Six in all; it was my older brother, my mom and my dad, my grandpa 00:01:00and my uncle. We’re all in this very cramped little rowhouse. Even though it was cramped, it was a good family. I know I spent a lot of time in my backyard, even though it was very small. Some of my earliest memories were looking for bugs in the grass and collecting four-leaf clovers on the side of my house, which had a little strip of grass there. I was really fortunate that my parents were also into the outdoors and into nature, so I wasn’t discouraged by picking up bugs and things like that. My dad was briefly a naturalist for Baltimore City, and he and my mom would go camping and hiking a lot, so I grew up with that background of spending time in nature, and it usually 00:02:00felt like kind of a safe place to go to, I think, because the neighborhood I grew up in was--I don’t want to say dangerous or unsafe, but my parents didn’t want me wandering around the neighborhood. So, I couldn’t really move around a lot in my neighborhood, and I was already in a very cramped house, so the times when we did get to take a trip to one of the local parks or go hiking or go camping someplace, it was kind of a safe space to explore and roam and not have to worry about thinking about my safety or anything like that.

Amber: Can you tell me a bit about what your experience with STEM classes were like growing up in middle school and high school?

Ela-Sita: I was in one of those advanced academic programs in middle school and high school. 00:03:00I remember the emphasis was always on technical STEM stuff, so it was engineering, physics, chemistry, cellular biology, but there was never this focus into ecology and wildlife biology, which was hard for me because, from a young age, I knew I was interested in it, but I always found myself in other types of classes. And I mean, I did good in it, but I think about how it could have been that first stepping stone to a career, and I wasn’t able to do that. Because, first of all, I just never saw biologists or ecologists that looked like me, and I would grow up watching the nature documentaries, and they’re always middle-aged white guys and white ladies who were halfway across the country or in the Amazon someplace studying wildlife. And that’s what I thought that job was, and there just wasn’t that connection 00:04:00with people actually doing the work. So, yeah; it was something I always knew I was interested in, and the courses that I took in middle school and high school didn’t really reflect my interest or kind of get me started on my career path like I would have wanted.

Amber: Was there anyone in your family that also shared this interest of science with you? I know you said that they shared the interest in nature.

Ela-Sita: Yeah. My dad was--he did a lot of different things during his life. So, at one point, he was a naturalist, but several times, he went to graduate school, didn’t complete it, but he was studying--I think one time, he studied microbiology. Another time, he studied biochemistry, I think. So, he would always 00:05:00say he was a scientist by training, so he was also very science-focused, and he spent most of his career being a teacher, teaching, primarily science but also math and even Latin as well.

Amber: And moving forward, transitioning to undergraduate, can you tell me a little bit about your experience at that point, also stating where you went and what you majored in?

Ela-Sita: I attended Hampton University, and I think I initially enrolled in the marine biology program, but then I later switched it to biological sciences. I still remember the first week of classes when they were doing orientations and everything, and they were talking about the two tracks 00:06:00that were within the biology program. There was a pre-med, pre-health kind of track, and there was an organisms and ecology track, and when they were asking people to raise their hands for which track they wanted to be on, I think I was the only person who raised my hand for the organisms and ecology track. I would say it was a good experience at Hampton University, again, it was wanting to have more experience and background with ecology, but because the majority of the people there were pre-med and pre-health, that’s what a lot of the courses that were being offered--were kind of towards that track. So, even there, I still only got little bits of experience here and there with ecology and wildlife, and I think the closest I got to wildlife experience was doing a research 00:07:00semester at a zoo that was nearby and looking at giraffe behavior, I think. But, yeah; I remember that was just when I was starting to learn about what you needed to do. And as an undergraduate, you’re supposed to start looking for internships or looking for experiences to do during the summer. I remember looking up some of them and realizing it was really hard to get into a lot of those because they wanted you to have your own car, and you’d have to drive someplace; you have to provide your own housing. And I was a low-income student, so I didn’t even have a car. A lot of the opportunities I initially looked up weren’t accessible to me.

Amber: And did you always know that you were going to go to college and study science, or when did you realize that?

Ela-Sita: Yeah. I think it was--I don’t know if it’s just the way that I grew up, 00:08:00but it was just kind of an automatic; after I graduate from high school, I’m gonna go to college. I always knew that I was interested in being around wildlife, and sometimes, that was like, okay as a wildlife biologist. I think I, briefly, had a stage where I was like, oh, maybe I can be a wildlife veterinarian or something like that. But, I guess I didn’t really have the exposure to really get a better idea of what I wanted to do. I just knew I’m interested in wildlife; I would like to have a job that has something to do with wildlife.

Amber: What advice would you give to current undergraduates that are, maybe, not sure what they want to study but seem to also be interested in ecology?

Ela-Sita: I’ve now had a couple of undergraduates talk to me recently about this, and I feel like the main 00:09:00thing is to definitely try to get experience wherever you can. Even though I didn’t have a lot in undergraduate, I did have one opportunity to do some work with insects, and initially, I was like, oh, I don’t know about insects, so I didn’t take up that opportunity. Unfortunately, like hindsight, that was a terrible mistake because I ended up studying birds and bats, and insects are an important part of understanding birds and bats. So, even though it wasn’t exactly what I wanted, in hindsight, I wish I had taken those kinds of opportunities earlier on. So, definitely getting experience in whatever opportunities are available to you, connecting with other biologists; I feel like it’s a lot easier to do nowadays than it was when I was in college. You can literally talk to folks on social media and ask them, what is your job like, or what kind of skill should I be getting. So, I always suggest to folks 00:10:00to try to connect with other people who are doing that work, see what you can learn from them, and get a behind-the-scenes look at what that really means to be a biologist. It’s not just playing outside all day; it’s data analysis and meetings and things like that, so definitely interacting with folks is one. Getting as much experience as possible, even if it’s not directly in the field you want.

Amber: And moving from undergraduate to graduate school, was this also something you knew for a long time--that you are going to, eventually, go to graduate school, and can you talk to us a bit about where you went to graduate school and what your experience was like?

Ela-Sita: Sure. I think when I was in college 00:11:00at Hampton, that’s when I realized that if you want to be a biologist, you have to go get a graduate degree. So, honestly, it was something I’d never really thought of until then, and because of that, I was vastly unprepared for the whole experience and knowing the kind of expectations to have going into it. I ended up going to a school nearby Hampton University; it was a small college called Christopher Newport University, and they had a master’s program in environmental science. And I remember talking to one of the professors there and getting to know the professors that were there, and there was only one person there who really focused on wildlife, and he studied bats. By default, that’s what I ended up getting involved with--was bats at first, and initially, it was like, oh, I don’t know about bats, but they grew on me really quickly. They’re 00:12:00a great little group of critters to study, I think. So, that was the first time I had the opportunity to start doing traditional field work and getting to talk to my faculty advisor who was a biologist and learning about his experiences. But, in hindsight, even with that first step, I didn’t develop a lot of skills that would be good for a wildlife biologist during that time. I was very hyper-focused on my project which was a very simple project. It was just looking at these abandoned buildings that bats were roosting in and putting data loggers in it to measure the temperatures and basically just comparing temperatures of, what we call, maternity roosts, so roosts where just female bats and their pups live, and comparing it to other buildings that bats weren’t roosting in 00:13:00or only individual males were roosting in. So, it wasn’t a lot of technical skills that I really learned from that because I didn’t know what kind of expectations to have in graduate school ahead of time. I just accepted it and went with the flow and didn’t realize that I really needed to be pushing for developing these skills, talking with my advisor, and really putting him to work, too, and saying, what kind of things can you provide for me. I eventually graduated after three years; I had my master’s degree, but I didn’t have a lot of biology skills. So, even when I was looking for jobs--like, as the bat biologist, they wanted you to have experience handling bats, rabies shots, knowing how to do acoustic surveys, and I hadn’t done any of that in my work. So, 00:14:00even though I had the degree, I didn’t have the skills to really back it up, so the next few years after that, I did a mix of some technician jobs, and I started learning about environmental education during that time. And during that--I forget--five or six years afterwards, I moved back to Baltimore, so I was still in that mindset of, I’m not gonna find any work here in Baltimore. But, my dad was an educator, and he was getting more involved in environmental education, so I thought I would also learn a bit more about it and got some certificates in that and continued the occasional field technician job to try to get more skills. You want me to go ahead and talk about the Ph.D. part, too?

Amber: Yeah; that would be great.

Ela-Sita: Okay. So, yeah; I alternated between learning about environmental 00:15:00education work and the other things that I was working on. And back in 2013, I saw a position on a job board for, actually, volunteering, but it was for doing bird surveys in Baltimore, and I was surprised because I was like, why would you wanna study birds here in Baltimore, in the city? But, I figured it was a volunteer job; I would get experience doing bird surveys and helping with mist netting and things like that, so I figured it wouldn’t hurt to try it out and see. And, the person I worked with was a Ph.D. student at the University of Missouri, and from the time I spent working with her and talking about Baltimore in general and my experience growing up there and realizing that there’s a lot of bird species that use Baltimore, specifically vacant lots, which is what her dissertation was on--looking at bird species that used vacant lots--and 00:16:00talking to her about that, but also talking about my background with bats. She talked to her advisor, and they both thought it would be a good idea for me to think about going back to graduate school and maybe doing a dissertation research combining those two interests of bats and wildlife use of vacant lots, which hadn’t been studied that much in Baltimore so far. So, that’s really how I ended up going to the University of Missouri and getting my Ph.D. in Missouri, but going back and forth between Missouri and Baltimore to study vacant lots and record acoustic calls from bats and determining what the bat community looked like in Baltimore.

Amber: Thanks for sharing that. I’m also curious to know what some of your other experiences in graduate school were like outside of your research. I know that you’ve done a lot of outreach and science communication, 00:17:00if you want to share some of those experiences as well.

Ela-Sita: Sure. So, when I decided to go back to school and get my Ph.D., I was reflecting on my experience the first time around, and I decided I wanted to make sure I got lots of different types of experiences and skill sets, if I was gonna put myself through graduate school again. I found out that Mizzou had, what’s called, a graduate certificate program in science communication or science outreach. And that was something I had started becoming interested in, when I was learning about environmental education and from my own experience working with bats, telling other people about bats, seeing their reaction, and I didn’t have a way to talk through that with them because it was instantly like, ew, bats are gross; that’s nasty. Then, the conversation ends there. So, I felt like, in order to be a good 00:18:00biologist and be able to share this work, you have to get people past that barrier of fear or misunderstanding which is what it’s rooted in. People just don’t know. So, that was a really great program to be involved with, and part of getting that certificate was spending--I forget how many hours--but you’re required to spend a certain amount of time doing outreach, so it allowed me to practice talking with people and trying different mediums, from online presentations and booths at different programs around Missouri and going back and forth between Baltimore and Missouri. Doing stuff in rural communities, and then coming to Baltimore, and doing them in Baltimore. So, it was a really good experience with that. I also did a lot of classes in geographic information system mapping to make sure I had GIS skills. 00:19:00I also helped out other people with some of their research, so there was a bat biologist in Missouri that was doing mist netting and handling bats, so I was able to get experience with that as well. So, I felt more well-rounded--a more complete biologist I guess. So, not only did I have my experience with my own dissertation, but I also understood things around me as well.

Amber: And being from Baltimore, and later doing your scientific research there, do you think that that helped you, you know, since you’re already familiar with the area and the community, in doing your outreach work? Do you have any advice 00:20:00for people trying to connect with the community that they’re working in through outreach or science communication?

Ela-Sita: Yeah, I would definitely say it’s important to, as much as possible, get a well-rounded understanding of the community, not just what you want to get from them or what you want to do to stick on your resume. I know for me, at least, even though I live in Baltimore, I don’t know what’s going on in all the city. So, I’m always subscribing to different newsletters and paying attention on social media to different groups doing work across the city, not just where I live and where I work, but all around to get a better feel for the different types of things going on there. I know one thing that I’ve recommended to people before, who are in Baltimore, is to get a good understanding of Baltimore’s history 00:21:00and its past and how that shaped the city to where it is now. Like, learning about redlining and understanding what that means and how that plays out in Baltimore today, so having a good understanding of the past and trying to stay current with not just the news, but everything going on in the city.

Amber: And can you tell us a bit about your career path after graduate school and the current position you have now with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service?

Ela-Sita: Yeah. I got my Ph.D. in 2019. I remember struggling to find jobs at that time, and I was applying for a lot of academic jobs, a couple 00:22:00of state jobs here and there. But, I remember it was very hard to get my foot in the door, so I spent a lot of time applying for things and not hearing back, spending a lot of time applying for these jobs because these applications usually are pretty lengthy. Due to some family issues, I had to be in Baltimore towards the end of the year, so I moved back here and was still applying for things but was primarily focused on--my father was in the hospital, and during that time, I was trying to find something part-time or temporary that I could do. So, leaning on my experience with environmental education, I reached out to a nature center in Baltimore and asked if they had any positions open. They had a part-time position open that was part 00:23:00naturalist, part, like, forest preschool teacher, so I did that for a while; that was, maybe, about a year that I was at that position. And I think, for a while, I just stayed there, kind of complacent, I guess. My father had passed at the end of 2019, so I think part of my healing was also staying with that part-time job and giving myself space to grieve and grow from that, so I was going along with the flow with this part-time job, and then back in the summer of 2020, I’d suddenly had, like, fifteen emails in my inbox saying, have you seen this position in Baltimore with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service? 00:24:00So, all these folks that I had known from graduate school and environmental education, and even my boss at that time, they all saw this job announcement for an urban wildlife biologist that was in Baltimore with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and everyone was like, you have to apply for that! So, it didn’t take me long to decide that I should go for it, and I applied for it mid-summer and was interviewed the first time in September and a second time at the end of September, I think, and they offered me the job in October, and I started in January of 2021 with U.S. Fish and Wildlife.

Amber: Can you tell us a bit about what you do as an urban wildlife biologist? 00:25:00Ela-Sita: I think my official title--I’m not sure; there’s lots of different titles--but, sometimes, I’m called an urban refuge biologist, and sometimes, it’s just wildlife biologist. But, my position with U.S. Fish and Wildlife is a pretty unique one in that it’s funded through multiple departments within Fish and Wildlife. So, normally, if you’re a biologist, you’re normally funded through one program; there’s Ecological Services; there’s Science Applications; there’s Fisheries; there’s Migratory Birds, and there’s several other programs. So, normally, a person would just be in one, but my position is funded through five programs, so I do a little bit of work for each of those departments. Right now, I’m at Masonville Cove; that’s my background picture. My work through the Ecological Services department is working on the wildlife management plan for Masonville Cove, and that’s mainly 00:26:00doing bird and mammal monitoring here at Masonville Cove. There’s a big outreach component as well, so there’s a lot of talks and presentations and programming that I work on. And assisting the Masonville Cove partnership. Masonville Cove is not a Fish and Wildlife refuge per se; it’s what we call an urban wildlife refuge partnership, so Fish and Wildlife doesn’t own the land. The Maryland Port Administration does because it’s right on the water adjacent to ports; so, the partnership consists of several organizations, and we all work together to take care of Masonville Cove, provide programming, and help connect people to nature in this space. So, I work with folks in the Maryland Port Administration, Living Classrooms Foundation, which is an environmental education group, the Maryland Environmental Service, and the National 00:27:00Aquarium, which also does programming and community work in South Baltimore. We all work together on programming and connecting people to nature, so that’s the Ecological Services component. With Science Applications, I’m working on a greenhouse project to grow plants to support an at-risk species of butterfly. There’s the Fisheries department, and in that, I’m supposed to be working on providing fishing days for people here at Masonville and, eventually, doing work with invasive fish species. Refuges is the other department, and with that, I work with Patuxent Research Refuge, which is down the road from Baltimore in the Bowie/Laurel area outside of Washington, D.C., so some days I spend down there working with their visitor services staff--again, mainly 00:28:00outreach-focused down there as well. The last department is Migratory Birds; I do bird programming on their behalf, and I’m also helping set up a bird banding station here at Masonville later this year. So, I end up juggling a lot of different projects, and I also still help out my Fish and Wildlife colleagues at our main field office which is in Annapolis, Maryland. They have more traditional wildlife biologist roles, and sometimes, I help with their projects, too.

Amber: What advice would you give to current graduate students who might be interested in a similar career? What sorts of things would help them prepare, and, maybe, what things do you think helped you? 00:29:00Ela-Sita: I definitely think having experience with outreach and education is a really good skill to have, at least experience with learning to communicate the technical, science-y stuff to other people to not just show the importance of your own work, but really connect it to people’s everyday lives. And that was one of the main things that--when I would talk to people about bats, I would focus on their connections to us, so them being pest control in a way and some of them being pollinators and some of them using seed dispersal to replant the rainforest. So, finding ways to connect what bats are doing to our everyday lives like the clothes that we wear, the food that we eat. I think outreach and education is a good component or a good skill to help work on. 00:30:00I know within Fish and Wildlife, one of the requirements is having a certain number of plant classes, which surprised me. I didn’t realize that at first, but it goes back to what I was saying before, talking about having a little bit of experience and different skills outside of what you normally focus on. So, I would say that those two are probably the main ones.

Amber: And now reflecting back on your experiences in graduate school, which got you to where you are today, what would you say were some of the biggest challenges that you experienced?

Ela-Sita: Some of my biggest challenges in graduate school? 00:31:00I think I mentioned it a little bit from my master’s degree. Just not having the full understanding of what graduate school entails, and what I should get out of it, was one thing, and I did that better the second time around. I think one challenge is definitely having a work-life balance. It’s something that I’m good at now because the way Fish and Wildlife is set up, it’s easier for me to just say, I’m working this amount of hours this week, and that’s it. But, I didn’t set that boundary for myself when I was in graduate school, so I feel like that’s something that was a challenge, and it’s very easy to overwork yourself. And even when you overwork yourself, you still feel like you haven’t done enough. So, learning to be patient with myself was hard; 00:32:00learning to put aside time for myself wasn’t easy. I think doing it in a state I had never been to before was a challenge, too. I’d grown up in Baltimore, which is predominantly Black, and I went to an HBCU [historically Black college and universities]. And then I went to Christopher Newport University; that was my first time being around people who didn’t look like me, so it was really a culture shock for me then, but even more so when I went to Missouri. I was smack dab in the middle of Missouri, and it’s predominantly white all around me. And I went from living in the city to living in a suburb. So, that was its own challenge, learning to adjust to a different culture, learning how to navigate central Missouri. And, I still didn’t have a car at that time, 00:33:00so trying to manage public transportation and finding ways to have fun on the weekend without a car. And also trying to socialize and hang out with other graduate students when you’re the only Black woman in the department; that felt like a challenge sometimes, too. Everyone was always very nice to me, but even then, I still didn’t feel like I was a part of the community, if that makes sense? I ended up joining the Black graduate student association, and that was nice, too, but it was, like, none of them were really into the natural sciences, so the kind of things they were interested in doing for fun weren’t always the same things I want to do. So, it was a misbalance; it felt like trying to be in one group but still feeling a little bit out of place. So, 00:34:00learning to manage that. Learning to take good care of my mental health. That was the first time in my life where I’d started thinking about mental health and how to take care of it, so that was definitely a challenge that I learned to navigate, too. I think that’s it; that kind of covers it.

Amber: So, you talked about work-life balance. I’m curious, what sorts of activities do you enjoy doing outside of work? I know you said you like outdoor activities; which outdoor activities are your favorite, and what other hobbies do you have?

Ela-Sita: I’ve been slacking a little bit lately. I’m not much of a winter, outdoorsy person. But, normally, I like going for hikes. I got into nature 00:35:00photography a little over ten years ago, and that’s something that I like doing. It’s really going out, getting a chance to look at nature up close, observe it, and take off the scientist hat for a minute and be able to observe and see a scene in front of you. Hiking. I haven’t done camping in a while, but I do like camping. Something I picked up during the pandemic was embroidery, which is very different, and I liked it because I’d been thinking about how my work is very outdoor-focused, and all my hobbies are very outdoor-focused. And I was like, I feel like I need to do something outside of nature that’s not directly related to it, so embroidery became my pandemic hobby for a while, and I’m still continuing that, which is fun, and it’s a good creative outlet I think. Yoga 00:36:00is another thing that I like to do; I meditate sometimes as well; I need to get better at it. I’m just returning to reading for fun, which is something that I think when we’re in graduate school, it’s like you’re so focused on reading because you have to that when you have free time, you don’t wanna look at a book, but I used to really love reading before graduate school, so I’m trying to get back into reading for fun, which is hard for me to get back into for some reason. But, yeah; I’m working on it.

Amber: You mentioned working with bats and birds, so I’m curious if you’re more of a morning person or a night person because those may require different hours.

Ela-Sita: Oh, yes! I’m more of a night person, 00:37:00so I really thrived when I was doing, especially, my technician positions where I was helping with bat surveys at night out in Nevada. It was fine for me to be working at 11:30 at night; it was not a problem. Doing bird surveys is a struggle because I would have to get up at 5 or 6 in the morning during the summer to do those, so it was a bit of a struggle for me, but I think also not having to do it every single day helped. I would normally spend half a week doing bird surveys, and I could manage getting up early a couple times a week for that.

Amber: Can you talk a bit about what brings you the most joy in your work?

Ela-Sita: It’s been harder 00:38:00during the pandemic to connect with the public because a lot of the work I did last year was virtual. But, there were times when I got to interact with people in-person and see them react to programming that we were having. I think my favorite story from last year was a fishing program that we had set up. This family came, and the youngest one was deathly afraid of the water. He would not go out on the pier at all, and he was starting to whimper and was not going forward. The other three members of his family were just fine. They went and picked up fishing poles, and they were starting to do stuff. I had these laminated sheets that had different types of fish on it. At first, I just looked at it with him, and I was like, oh, look at these different fish; which one do you like the most, and what kind of fish do you think we’ll see here? I started engaging with him that way and talking 00:39:00to him like that--he mentioned he was afraid that there were sharks and crocodiles in the water that were gonna eat him--just giving him space to adjust and think about fish. And I was like, what if we move a little bit further down the pier, and you can hold a pole in your hand? Then my other co-worker and I sat with him, and she showed him how to use the pole, and he ended up catching the most fish out of everyone there that hour. I think he caught eight, and it was a catch-and-release thing, so he got to look at the fish up close and realize it was the same kind of thing he saw on the sheet and then be able to put it back. So, that was really rewarding for me, to get someone a little bit out of their comfort zone and get them to connect with nature.

Amber: Thanks for sharing that story. I’m curious, where do you see yourself, maybe, ten years from now? I know that can be a difficult question. 00:40:00Ela-Sita: Yeah! Gosh, I hope I’m still in the same position that I’m in right now. I really like the balance of doing traditional biologist stuff but also getting to do outreach and having a strong component that focuses on communities and ways that we can connect the nearby communities with nature and thinking about, in general, how do we support people in connecting to nature. I don’t even like saying connecting people to nature because, even in cities, I feel like my experience has been that people are aware of the nature around them, and they end up telling me stories about things that they’ve seen in their neighborhood. So, it’s not really connecting them, but how do we make it as easy as possible for them to experience nature because a lot of people already have that connection. But, yeah; I hope to continue having a job that allows 00:41:00me to do research and outreach, hopefully, within the federal government. Right now, I have what’s called a term position, so it renews up to four years, so hopefully by then, I’ll have a permanent position that I can transition into, and I can continue doing this work here because it feels like a good fit for me.

Amber: I’m glad to hear that. I’m curious about some of your mentors in graduate school. Maybe they were informal mentors. How did those folks help you along the way, and was there a particular style of mentoring that you benefited most from?

Ela-Sita: I think that was something, in general, that I struggled with throughout my career actually, and it was, again, circling back to 00:42:00not knowing what I needed to have in graduate school. I wasn’t even aware of mentorship styles and thinking about that ahead of time--like, what kind of style works for me. So, my advisor in graduate school--I guess that counts as my mentor--he was maybe ten years older than me. He had just gotten out of his graduate school program, and he had his Ph.D., so he had been out of graduate school probably no more than a few years when I started. So, I think we were both new at it; we weren’t really sure what we were doing. I think he did the best that he could; he was very, very hands-off, and over time, I realized that having a hands-off mentor doesn’t really work for me. So, he would make suggestions here and there, be present here and there, but I really 00:43:00didn’t know what I was doing, so I really needed someone to walk me along to help me figure things out, and in hindsight, I didn’t have that much mentorship. Even when I was at Mizzou. I would say, still, my main mentor was my Ph.D. advisor, and it was a similar thing, where he was also pretty hands-off, and I’d gotten a little bit better at, you know, figuring out things. But, when I started with the Fish and Wildlife Service, my first supervisor was a lot more hands-on, and I found it really helpful to have him as a compass to remind me of what direction I wanna go in, not just, you need to do X, Y, and Z. He would remind me, think 00:44:00about where you want to be five or ten years down the road and how you can get there and how can we support you in getting there. So, it felt so different from my experience in academia, where it was like this person is really invested in what I need, what I can do, and directing me that way. I’ve been in Fish and Wildlife for a little over a year now; I’ve had the opportunity to connect with other people in the Service, and even outside of the Service, who’ve offered to be mentors for me. And one of them was Dr. Mamie Parker who used to be the regional director of Fish and Wildlife a while ago, so it’s also been really nice to have someone outside of my current position to talk to which is something I hadn’t really experienced before. 00:45:00In my academic bubble, it was having mentors who were in academia, and now I’m in a government position, and I have both mentors within the government and also outside of it with Mamie, so it’s been really nice. I feel like it’s very expansive, if that makes sense. You get different perspectives that way, and it can help you.

Amber: So, what has your experience been like receiving mentorship or interacting with science communities that share similar identities to you, whether that’s other Black scientists and naturalists or other women of color? How has that been for you?

Ela-Sita: Oh, it’s been like a breath of fresh air for me. I think that was part 00:46:00of the reason why I started spending a lot of time on social media five or ten years ago. It was finally getting a chance to see other Black people doing wildlife research or doing stuff similar to what I was doing. Because literally up until five or ten years ago, I was the only Black person at all the conferences and graduate school and everything like that, so it was really nice to connect with others and see what they’re doing. And then a couple years ago, Black Birders Week happened, and that was just an incredible event, just seeing it snowball into all these other efforts for other groups of scientists of color getting a chance to share their experiences and talk about their research. Getting a chance to learn about so many different scientists of color who are doing all sorts of incredible work and getting a chance to learn from them, so 00:47:00it’s been a pleasure for me. And just in the past couple years since I’ve been back in Baltimore, I’ve had a chance to connect with other people of color here in Baltimore doing work, which when I was doing graduate school, I didn’t even realize a lot of these people were here, so I’ve connected with a lot of folks in Baltimore doing work, and it’s been rewarding to support each other because that’s what automatically happened. We didn’t have to ask each other; it was like, once we connected, we’re just like, what are you doing, how do you need help, and how can we support each other? So, it’s been really, really cool to see that support with each other.

Amber: Do you have any advice for early-career Black scientists, whether they’re an undergraduate or just starting graduate school--a Black scientist 00:48:00or naturalist, and maybe they’re feeling isolated? How can they get involved in these communities or find these mentors with similar identities? I know you said you weren’t able to do that until a bit later.

Ela-Sita: Yeah. I would say--and I know one of my shortcomings is, I’ve always been an introvert; I really hesitate to talk to people if I have to. But, definitely reaching out to people, just talking and interacting as much as possible. Like I mentioned before, I think social media makes it a lot easier to connect with other people, so when you see another Black person doing research, or they’re in graduate school, you have that ability to connect with them and talk to them and support each other, which I think is really great. 00:49:00I think self-care is a big part of that, too--good mental health. And even when you realize that you feel alone, having that mental health strength or familiarity with being able to be okay with that and still kind of persevere and not have it be damaging or stressful, which isn’t always possible. I know from my time in Missouri, it’s definitely not always easy. But, connect with people when you can, and make sure you’re taking care of yourself, so that those stressors that inevitably come with that--you can bounce back from it a bit. And take time to just step away from it all, too. 00:50:00I think that’s important.

Amber: Thanks for sharing that. Moving to a different topic, what are some of your favorite places that you’ve traveled to, and where would you like to go in the future?

Ela-Sita: I think the first place that I went to that opened my eyes to a different experience--oh, gosh; there’s probably a couple. So, one time, when I was in high school, and I was in Baltimore, even though we were pretty low-income, we were able to save up enough money to go to India, and that was the first time in my life I’d ever been outside of the country and outside of, maybe, two or three other cities 00:51:00in the United States. It was my first time being exposed to something completely different, and it was really eye-opening for me. You know, Baltimore and India were similar in some ways but also very different in other ways, so it was one of those mind-opening moments for me which was good to have as a teenager. When it came to field work, when I was a master’s student, even though I was doing my research in southern Virginia, I had opportunities to go to Nevada because my advisor was doing a lot of work with bats out West. And I still remember that first drive out of the airport in Reno going to our field site and being around these amazing deserts and mountains, and it was so much space! It just blew my mind that even though there weren’t any trees there, it was so vast and amazing to me and just blew my mind. 00:52:00So, my time in Nevada was really, really enjoyable for me. Right after I got my Ph.D., I went on a trip to Yosemite National Park and spent a few days there, too, which is really, really nice. I love being out West and wanna spend more time out there. I’ve been to California several times, and I love being out there around the redwoods and the mountains and ocean; it’s definitely one of my favorite places to be.

Amber: So, we talked a bit about what brings you joy in your work, and on a related topic, I’m curious about what has continued to motivate you through the challenges of graduate school and applying for these jobs and been 00:53:00that inspiration for you to continue on this path.

Ela-Sita: Good question. What has motivated me to keep going? I mean, part of it was my parents. They’re always encouraging, always reminded me that I was smart, I was capable, any difficulties I was having, I would be able to get through them. I think it always came back to, like, that what I was always interested in was nature and wildlife, and even when there were times when I wanted to walk away from everything, I realized I don’t know what else I could do outside of this. I didn’t know what else I could do for a career or a job or anything, outside of it. So, for a while, it was, the only way to get through this is just to get through it and figure 00:54:00it out as I go. I feel like that’s not the great answer, though. But, it was just support from family and the underlying love that I had for it that kind of kept me going.

Amber: And I’m curious, going into a lot of these predominantly white spaces, whether that’s jobs in the outdoors or graduate school, I imagine a lot of times, you were the first Black person in a certain role, and I’m wondering what that was like for you, being the first.

Ela-Sita: I think the first time I experienced that was when 00:55:00I was getting my master’s, and I think the first conference I went to was like a North American bat research conference, and I remember looking around and realizing I was the only Black person at this entire conference. And I remember my first reaction was, it made me kind of sad, and at that time, I wasn’t aware of other Black biologists, and I didn’t know, like, am I the first one? Am I about to make history or something? I wasn’t sure. But, yeah, I remember my initial reaction was a sadness, and it changes depending on what situation I’m in specifically. Even when I was at Mizzou, and I was in the graduate department, I felt mostly supported by the other graduate students; everyone was always nice to me, and some were more supportive than others. It was…it’s hard to put in words sometimes, and it’s one 00:56:00of those things that I feel like is a recurring thing where you question reactions or interactions that you have with other people, and you question whether or not you actually did or said something wrong, or is it because you’re Black, because you come from a city outside of Missouri, or things like that. Not ever being fully sure where you stand with people. I think that was hard. So, even though nothing negative happened to me in Missouri, I still thought about the kind of support that I’d wanted to experience from other people in graduate school and realizing that I didn’t really get that from other graduate students except for one graduate student who wasn’t in the department. She was another Black woman in a different department, and we both were outdoorsy, 00:57:00so we were really happy that we found each other and were able to support each other. She was the one who was like, oh, how are you feeling? Especially my last semester, when it was really, really hard for me. I think that’s when I really reflected on the extent of support and love that I felt around me, and that’s when I realized even though everyone was very kind to me, and if I asked for something, they would provide it--but when I didn’t ask for help and was struggling, I realized that was absent. So, it depends; like I said, depends on where I am. Here at Fish and Wildlife and the office that I’m in in Annapolis, when I started, I was one of two Black people in the office. And it’s been harder 00:58:00to understand the dynamics of the office because I started during the pandemic, and it’s been mostly virtual. But, in general, I feel like I’ve gotten nothing but support from everyone in the office that I’ve talked to, and people invite me to help them with research, and anytime I am in-person, I get a chance to talk to them, and everyone seems genuinely happy that I’m there. So, at least within Fish and Wildlife locally, it’s been a good experience for me since I’ve started. I don’t feel out of place which is interesting.

Amber: You mentioned the pandemic, and that led me to another question about being in Baltimore and looking at urban wildlife and helping people explore 00:59:00nature in this city. What sorts of changes have you observed during the pandemic, regarding people in the city engaging within the outdoors and nature?

Ela-Sita: I know at Masonville, we’ve noticed an increase in the number of visitors during the pandemic. I didn’t really talk about this too much, but--I mean, I talked about my background like spending time at a park nearby--but my family actually became official volunteer members of the friends group of this park near our house called Friends of Gwynns Falls/Leakin Park, and my mom is currently on the board of the friends group, and I know she’s told me that they’ve noticed an increase in people visiting the park and being on the trails and, I guess, an increase in the number of people who join their friends group, too. So, it seems like people have started spending 01:00:00more time outdoors during the pandemic, which is good. And, we wanna continue engaging with people, and, now that they’ve experienced being outdoors more, finding other ways for them to try out other outdoor things that they may not have tried before. Because I think right now a lot of folks are just doing walks outside which is nice--and then giving them opportunities to try bird watching or fishing or geocaching which are some of the other things that we offer at Masonville. So, definitely more folks outside which is great.

Amber: And what projects are you most excited for, whether that’s one you already have in development or one that you can imagine doing in the future?

Ela-Sita: I’m pretty excited about the urban bird banding station that we’re setting 01:01:00up later this year. We’re working with a local group that does a lot of bird banding all around Baltimore City, which is pretty unique. Mostly, you see that in refuges and things like that that are way outside of the city, but they do bird banding and mist netting in vacant lots and community gardens and small parks and community forests in the city. So, they have a lot of experience with bird banding and connecting with and talking with people and allowing people to see these little birds up close that you normally don’t get to see up close. So, we’re gonna be doing a bird banding station at Masonville Cove, and it’ll be during the migratory season, so we’re excited to see what kind of migratory warblers we have coming through and having an opportunity for folks to see these cute little birds up close.

Amber: Cool! 01:02:00And is there anything else that we didn’t discuss or that you’d like to add on to? Is there anything else you’d like to share during our interview today?

Ela-Sita: I think the only thing I can add on is talking a little bit about my time as a park volunteer which I didn’t really--as I was talking, I realized I hadn’t mentioned it before. But, just providing a short background on that and how we got into that. I feel like it was around 2009 when we started spending more time in Baltimore again, and my dad started spending more time at a nearby park called Gwynns Falls/Leakin Park, and someone had taught him how to create labyrinths, or walking paths, so he went to the park, 01:03:00and he ended up connecting with some of the volunteers there, and he mentioned this skill, and they’re like, oh, we should make one here in the park. So, we helped him create a walking labyrinth in the park, and we took rocks from within the park and made this outline, so it’s a nice meditative walking space. We’ve been doing that since about 2009, and even though my dad passed a couple years ago, my mom and I have continued taking care of that part of the park. That’s kind of our space that we help manage and clean up and take care of within the park. It’s a very different part, completely unrelated to work, but it’s another special thing to me and another way for me to connect in nature, I think.

Amber: I’m 01:04:00glad that you shared that. So, those were all the questions that I had for you, and I really appreciate you sharing your story, your advice, and your insight, and I think a lot of people will benefit from hearing this. So, thank you.

Ela-Sita: Yes. Thank you! [End of Interview]