VT Stories Oral History with Theodore King, Jr., November 21, 2015 (Ms2016-015)

Claire Gogan: This is Claire Gogan and I am here with, can you state your

name please?

Theodore King, Jr. Theodore E. King, Jr.

Claire: What is your date and place of birth?

Theodore: Date of birth is 9-27-1950 and I was born in the country in

Mecklenburg County, Virginia.

Claire: What years did you go to Virginia Tech?

Theodore: 1968 to [19]72 for a bachelor's degree and I stayed for an additional

fifteen months or so to get a master's degree in economics in both instances.

Claire: Can you tell me a little bit about where you were raised and your family?

Theodore: Well, I was raised on a farm in southern Virginia, Lunenburg County

Virginia. It's adjacent to Mecklenburg County, Virginia. My father's family 00:01:00 was

born and lived in Lunenburg County when he married my mother who lived in

Mecklenburg County, which is adjacent, about ten miles away across the river

from where my father's family was born and were sharecroppers on a farm. My

mother then moved to Lunenburg County where my father's family was

sharecropping, raised tobacco on a farm for the first fifteen years of my life.

And then my mother and father built a house on my great-grandparents' farm in

Mecklenburg County which is where my mother had lived. My great-grandparents,

Wesley and Gertie Taylor had a sizable farm in Mecklenburg County, over one

hundred acres actually, which is unusual for Blacks in that period of time. And

my parents decided to 00:02:00move on that farm, built a nice little brick rambler and I

lived there for the latter part of my teen years, before I came to Virginia

Tech, the last two years before I came to Virginia Tech. I moved there when I

was about sixteen. I [only] lived there myself for a couple of years before I

went off to college and haven't lived there since, but my mother still lives

there. My father died about ten years ago.

Claire: How did you choose Virginia Tech?

Theodore: Well, I had the opportunity I suppose to go to lots of different

places. I did very well in high school. I was a national achievement

semifinalist student, which was a program comparable to the National Merit

Scholarship Program. 00:03:00The National Achievement Program was specifically targeted

towards minority students. As a result of that I got lots of inquiry from lots

of schools all over the country to attend. There were places in the late [19]60s

that were targeting minority students at that time. In the aftermath and

upheavals being brought about by the Civil Rights Movements lots of schools were

opening up and accepting minority students during that period. So I received

lots of materials, lots of inquiries, lots of invitations to apply to schools

all over the country actually. I always had an interest in math, to a lesser

extent science, but particularly math. I was interested in going someplace

focused on those area specifically. Virginia 00:04:00Tech was very strong in math and

the sciences and engineering, that sort of thing, so it had sort of a natural

appeal, plus it was in Virginia, so I knew about it from that standpoint. It was

not like lots of other schools from what I perceived. I never visited any

college tours or took any college visits or anything, because we were too poor

for me to do anything like that, so everything I knew I learned about from their

literature, catalogs, magazines. I knew a student or two who might have gone to

one school or another. I sort of had an idea of the kind of school that I wanted

to attend. My guidance counselor for example suggested why don't you apply to

the University of Virginia? I looked at that school, it's a great 00:05:00school but it

didn't fit me at all. I was a poor minority student from a tobacco farm, and

when I looked at the University of Virginia and lots of other schools of a

similar quality and sort of personality I said I don't fit in here. This is not

the kind of place that I think I would feel comfortable, because they were more,

I don't want to use the word 'haughty taughty', but they were targeting a

different kind of student or person than I was, whereas Virginia Tech seemed to

be more focused on a common sort of man as it were, someone who maybe not have

all the kinds of backgrounds and 00:06:00personalities and experiences and wealth that

was associated with a lot of the other schools. So to make a long story short I

suppose, after reviewing all of these invitations and what have you that I

received I decided on two schools that I would apply to. In addition to being

interested in math and science and that sort of thing, I was also interested in

going someplace that had good athletic programs. I like sports and I liked to be

involved or have the opportunity to experience sort of good athletics while I

was in school. That was part of my fun to be in an environment that had that

kind of experience available as well. And during that time 00:07:00Purdue University of

all places was a very good math and science and engineering kind of focus, but

also very decent football and basketball programs. I remember a fellow from

Virginia who played at Purdue from Portsmouth, Walter Bowser. He was a running

back for Purdue and he played very good, a football player, and he was much in

the news because he was a minority student. He was from Virginia and he was a

star at Purdue, and that sort of caught my attention. So it was probably as much

that kind of exposure through the athletic program that drew me to sort of look

at them as to what they might offer academically that convinced me that oh okay,

a school that does pretty good athletically. It has a minority student who is a

star in the football program. It has a very good basketball program there Rick 00:08:00Mount and all those people from those days who were very good. It has science

and engineering and math focus, so I applied. I made the same sort of evaluation

for Virginia Tech. They were very good in both football and basketball. People

find that hard to believe, that back in the mid-[19]60s, in addition to being a

strong academic program, so those were the two schools I decided to apply to.

Got into both. Purdue offered me some financial assistance, some scholarships,

but also a significant amount of loans and that scared me. [Laughs] Growing up

in Virginia and poor and knowing my parents were not going to be able to

contribute a lot of money to my college fund. 00:09:00It probably would have been my

first choice at the time, had it turned out to be a realistic option, plus for

both the financial considerations, and my parents had no desire for me to go

that far away from home as well. They were not supportive of my going out to

Purdue because it was so far from home, and they just didn't think that would be

a good thing for me and probably not for them either. So I decided to come to

Virginia Tech, not with any kind of-- oh it's my second choice option. I mean I

was happy to go to college anywhere. I knew I did not want to live on a tobacco

farm for the rest of my life. I was going to do something with my life. I didn't

know exactly what, but 00:10:00farming was not going to be it for me. It taught me a lot

of good values and good experiences and it helped make me what I am, but it was

not me, so it was not what I wanted to continue doing. So I came to Virginia

Tech site-unseen my summer after my high school graduation to orientation and I

think it was probably late June as I recall. I took the bus from South Hill

Virginia to Blacksburg, a four-hour ride or five-hour ride or whatever it was. I

got off up near what was Cook's Clean Center, --off the mall downtown

Blacksburg. I remember walking down the mall to Eggleston Hall to check in that

late afternoon with a fellow from Northern Virginia, (Springfield, Virginia) Ray

Hutchinson, who had his suitcase and had taken the bus as 00:11:00well from northern

Virginia. He was walking down. We walked down together to Eggleston Hall to

check in for the orientation programs that lasted a day or two. As I was walking

down the Alumni Mall and getting to Eggleston Hall and noticing and seeing for

the first time in person the Drillfield, you know, the thought occurred to me

this is the place that I want to go to. I'm glad I decided to come here, because

the whole environment just cast a spell on me really. It was just so oh this is

so perfect. This is what I envision college looking like and being like and

being in this kind of environment. You know I had the opportunity this past 00:12:00September to go to Purdue for the first time in my life when the Hokies played

Purdue in football earlier in the season in September. And I said you know, this

is my time to go see what Purdue looks like, since I had never been there and I

could have gone there as an undergraduate student back in the [19]60s. So I did,

and I was very very happy that I did because going there led me to conclude you

know, I could have been very happy here as well, so it confirmed for me that the

two choices that I sort of focused on in high school site-unseen, each of them

could have worked for me just from my visual observation, and the interaction

that I had with people when I was at Purdue as well. But I don't regret for a

day having come to Virginia Tech. I'm overwhelmed with 00:13:00happiness and with

satisfaction that I came here and my experiences here and what I have done since

I graduated and how I've remained involved and that sort of thing. But it was

good for me to sort of confirm as well that I couldn't have made a bad choice at

that time, so that's sort of how I got here as it were.

Claire: What was it like to attend Virginia Tech as an African American student

during that time?

Theodore: Well, you know, I have had that question posed to me and thought about

it many times and I'm not sure-- Well, I'll just answer the question, I had a

great experience here. I don't have negative memories about my time at Virginia

Tech at all. I had 00:14:00a wonderful roommate who turned out to be my best friend

during my college days, which interestingly might never have occurred but for

the fact that since we both I think made our final decisions to come to Virginia

Tech later on in the process during our senior year; didn't send in our final

acceptance until a certain period of time. There were about a hundred or more

fellows who were housed in the basketball practice gym in Cassell Coliseum for

the first couple of weeks of the, at that time it was quarters, we didn't have

semesters, quarters, because our dorm wasn't finished. West Ambler Johnston was

opening up that year and had expected it to be open when we arrived in

mid-September, but it wasn't. So there were a hundred or more guys in bunk beds

in a gym 00:15:00in Cassell Coliseum for the first few weeks of the quarter until things

shook out and they could figure out where some empty rooms were or empty beds

were, and figure out triple--what rooms could have triples that could put a

extra bed in and to do three guys in a room for a period of time. So during that

first couple of weeks I had like a hundred roommates as it were in the Cassell

Coliseum gym and one of the fellows that I met during that period was a fellow

by the name of Joe Powell from Highland Springs, Virginia, a white, individual

white man, but just an engineering student, aerospace engineering student, but

just a nice guy, just a regular guy, and someone who is very friendly and very

open. We wound out having a couple of classes together so we would see each

other those three weeks not only in our dorm, but in classes, a calculus class

and another class or 00:16:00two. We sort of became friends, and after that first couple

of weeks a hundred of us were spread out all over the campus. I went to live

with two guys in Hennessey Hall and Joe was in Vawter I think and other guys

were spread out all over the place. And in early November when West Ambler

Johnston was finally finished they amassed us all back together and say, okay,

now it's open, you can move into West Ambler Johnston. Joe and I decided that we

would be roommates into West Ambler Johnston and remained roommates for the next

several years until I became an RA and he got married and what have you. So,

that was to me, when I think of my time at Virginia Tech I didn't come here

looking to 00:17:00not have a good experience or to have negative experiences. I was

open to engagement with people. I was overwhelmed with joy just to be in

college, so even if there might have been a slight or two, and I'm sure I

experienced some slight along the way or something of that sort, but by and all,

by and large that was not the case at all. I got along fine with all the people

that I engaged with both in the dorm and on campus generally. There was not a

time that I didn't feel like I didn't want to be here because I was African

American. A lot of times I think African Americans particularly want to stay to

the themselves as collectively as a 00:18:00group because there's comfort in numbers,

and I understand that. I appreciate that and to some extent I can sort of relate

to that, and probably if I saw some African American student or group or

something I might gravitate towards that individual just to engage them because

we sort of have something in common in that regard. But I didn't make that my

exclusive focus. I was at an integrated school and I wanted to have an

integrated experience as it were, so that was the way that I approached my

tenure here. I became an RA during my junior year and again there was one or two

other African American RAs before me, so it wasn't like I was the first or

anything of that sort, but it was 00:19:00another wonderful experience for me because

you get to sort of lead a whole group of people who generally don't look like

you. I think there was one other African American student in my cadre of

students I had in Lee Hall where I was an RA during the two years I was an RA,

the third floor one year and the fifth floor the next year, (the fifth floor the

first year and then the third floor the second year), and the overwhelming

interaction that I had was positive. The fellows treated me respectfully. They

would come by and chat and talk or if they had an issue or a problem they wanted

to discuss they didn't hesitate to come by and chat and talk and that sort of

thing. They did play a prank on me once 00:20:00which I went hmm, is this because I'm

African American or is it just guys, my guys,' because I'm the RA they are doing

this to me. One night I think it was like eleven or twelve o'clock, everybody

had gone to bed, and some guy or guys threw a firecracker under my door. And you

know, that was not unheard of, just as guys doing pranks, but I didn't know,

hmm, is this a prank or is this something more significant that was being done.

I never found out who it was and there was no harm or damage or anything like

that, but there could have been. That was the only 00:21:00negative or possibly negative

experience that I might have had during my tenure as an RA, but one of the few

even incidents in my whole time here that I can think of that might have had

some negative kind of connotation with it, but I'm not sure whether it did or

not. I do remember during my freshman year Virginia Tech was still playing

"Dixie" waving the confederate flag at basketball games and that sort of thing,

but that stopped I think after my first year. Marshall Hahn put a cease to that.

I would never stand or do anything to give an indication that I was supportive

of that at all, but I didn't make a big scene or march in protest or anything

like that 00:22:00either. I guess part of my passive acceptance, I suppose of something

like that and other kinds of things that might have occurred like that were tied

to the fact that you know, I'm in college. This is where I want to be. This is

what I know will help me get out of poverty and help me become a successful,

hopefully successful individual. I can let a lot of these things just roll off

my back. I'm not here to make any waves, that sort of thing. During my time here

there was a lot of student protests over the Vietnam War and that sort of thing

and there were students who took over Williams Hall, 106 of them were suspended,

that sort of thing. Some of my aunts and uncles 00:23:00called me up, you're not

involved in that are you? You're not part of that are you? [Laughs] They were

worried about me, because I would be engaged in that kind of activity, I might

be thrown out of school or something like that. You don't need to worry about

that, I'm at my dorm in my bed when people are taking over Williams Hall at 4

a.m. in the morning, so you don't need to worry about me in that regard. But it

was extremely interesting and in some ways I was supportive of the cause of a

lot of these students who would take those kinds of actions, but I'm not a

violent person. I am not a person who I guess challenges authority and when I

want to challenge authority I like to do it in a more constructive way, just

going and 00:24:00talking to them, meeting with them as opposed to taking matters into

my own hands and then risking the consequences of it. I mean I admire people who

are sometimes able to do that, sometimes when I think it's necessary, when I

think of Civil Rights leaders and people of the [19]60s particularly who because

of their actions you know I was able to come to Virginia Tech or achieve things

that I have later in life. Had some of them not been willing to step out and

challenge authority and to take matters into their own hands and not be

concerned about the consequences I would not be where I am. So I do appreciate

that and I understand that there is a time and a place for that. It's just that

I don't think that's the way that 00:25:00I would, I don't think I could act in that way

to try to achieve the results that they achieved. I would try to go about it in

a different way. That would be my approach just because of who I am, but I

certainly owe a great deal of gratitude and have a great deal of respect for

some people, many people in that era who were risking life and limb and

everything else to try to make things better for others, including me.

Claire: Can you talk a little bit more about the unrest on campus and like

things that you saw?

Theodore: Well, I remember people marching down Washington Street during the

Vietnam War, vast numbers of students marching and 00:26:00chanting "1, 2, 3, 4 we don't

want your F- war" and that sort of thing. There was, like I could think about

when my father and mother dropped me off for college in 1968 in September and

we're moving into well Cassell Coliseum, not the dorm at the time, but taking my

relatively few things compared to lots of things that other people had. I

encountered this long-haired hippie kind of guy from I presume northern Virginia

or someplace of that sort. Growing up in southern Virginia in the farm belt of

Virginia you didn't see people like that roaming around at all really. So I'm

sure they probably wondered on my goodness, where is our son going? What is

this? 00:27:00Is he going to be around these kinds of people during his time here at

Virginia Tech? And I was. There were lots of people like that. Most of them were

just perfectly fine. They were a little more worldly than me, but at the same

time they were perfectly decent individuals. So, you know, marching down

Washington Street there was a building that was burned on campus where the

bookstore is now. There used to be a little frame house there and during the

Vietnam War protests there was this little white frame building that was burned

down. I don't think they ever found the culprits or what happened, how it

occurred or what have you. It was all related to the unrest because of the

Vietnam War. And then of course the 106 students who took over Williams 00:28:00Hall and

Marshall Hahn who was president at the time wound up expelling them. I think

many of them or some of them may have gotten a chance to come back after a year

or two or whatever, but all 106 were dismissed from school at that time for at

least a period of time. So there was a lively and there were sort of protests,

sing-ins and concerts on the Drillfield and that sort of thing with student

bands and others protesting the War and that sort of thing. I would describe

Virginia Tech students at that time as being engaged in the goings on of the

day, primarily the War, not so much Civil Rights activity.

Claire: I was wondering about that 00:29:00 too.

Theodore: No. I mean there was some, I guess engagement from what I, I saw from

afar so I really can't give you inside information, by a group of African

American students as well that I seem to recall or have read about, but I wasn't

part of it, so I don't know, to confront Dr. Hahn over some matter or another,

but it was not something that I was directly involved with and I really couldn't

give you a good sort of history of what that was all about. I know that there

are people like Tim Fields or Tim Marshall or maybe Jackie Dandridge, Sylvia

Swilley or 00:30:00Byron Remm, who might. Byron and Myra Remm, they were brother and

sister who might. Margarete Harper who I think I've seen some article about in

the alumni magazine some years ago, who was an African American woman from

Norfolk who might be able to give more insight and background into that

particular kind of activity. But I was not here to be a catalyst for unrest, so

that was just not who I was all about, and I don't continue to be about that.

Claire: And you mentioned when you moved out of the one hundred person roommate

situation you had relatively few things compared to other students.

Theodore: Oh yeah.

Claire: What was your experience of being a working-class student on Virginia

Tech campus at that time?

Theodore: 00:31:00Well, luckily my roommate and friend Joe was similar. He had come from

a working-class family in Highland Springs, Virginia. His father was a shoe

cobbler. He owned a little store in Richmond, Virginia where they repaired

shoes. His mother I think was a housewife. They lived in a modest little

suburban home in Highland Springs. He didn't come to college with a whole lot of

stuff either, so from that standpoint we felt perfectly fine. I could see the

guys on my hall had stereos and TVs and those sorts of things that I didn't have

and Joe didn't have. We had a radio and that was sufficient for us. I didn't let

things like that concern me. I was here to go to college, 00:32:00to get an education,

not to necessarily amass those kinds of things, although I would have liked to

have had some of those things, but it just wasn't going to be possible right

now. One of the things I do remember very well from my freshman dorm in AJ when

it opened, you know all these guys who would hang out in the lounge which is at

the end of our little short hallway, would be like six rooms on this little

small hallway and at the end of those six rooms on either side there's this

little lounge where people can hang out and just visit and what have you. I

would go by there all times of the day or night and there would be these guys

there oftentimes playing cards, whether it's poker, bridge, whist or whatever,

lots of bridge, and I kept thinking how do these 00:33:00guys have the time to do all

this? I'm just trying to keep up with my studies and my homework and all this

stuff I've got to do, and you go there at midnight they're playing cards.

Mid-afternoon they are up there playing cards and they just seemed to be able to

just hang out and play cards all the time. While I'm sure it was a very good

social experience and that sort of thing, and I would have had liked to have

done that myself I'm sure, and in the latter years I really concluded when I

decided I wanted to play bridge, learned to play bridge, you know if I had just

stopped and played bridge with these guys in college when I was there I wouldn't

have to go to the community college now to learn how to take a bridge class to

learn how to play bridge. So, I guess it reinforced for me 00:34:00there's lots of

learning that can go on in college besides what you're learning from your books.

And if you can find the time and manage the time to engage in those kinds of

things that's a good thing, but you can't overdo it. My sense is that some of

these guys were probably overdoing it, but that was their lives and that's their

choices, but I didn't feel like I had the choice to do that at the time, because

I wanted to be sure that my studies, I was on top of my studies and that was my

primary focus. That was my job, and if I had any free time that I needed to try

to figure out these calculus problems or whatever it is I was focusing on at the

time, or writing an English paper or what have you. That was sort of my take on

things there.

Claire: Who were some professors who you remember who were important to you?

Theodore: 00:35:00Well, from my early years the one calculus professor that I had that I

remember specifically, so I had two, a Professor Riley. I can't remember his

first name now. He was my calculus professor, one of my calculus professors my

first year. We had quarters, so I had a different one for three quarters. Maybe

I had Riley the first two of those quarters. I may have had Riley for two of

those quarters actually. And then Professor Shockley, James Shockley for another

one of those quarters. Two very different kinds of professors. Professor

Shockley was head of the Math Department at the time, or certainly someone high

up in the Math Department, very well renowned and very hard. 00:36:00He had a reputation

for being a very strict and a very hard professor. Luckily, I was able to

survive his class with a B, which I was overwhelmed to get. Professor Riley was

more easy going, more comfortable to talk to. Lots of students maybe thought he

was an easier professor even, but I think it was his demeanor, his manner

probably accounted for people thinking he was easier, comfortable with him

because of his personality and that sort of thing. Regardless you know, I got an

A out of his class, so I was perfectly happy about that [laughs]. I have told

this story to many people; I'm not sure I want to put it on an oral history, but

I've-- [Laughs] It's 00:37:00already out in the public domain. When I was a freshman you

had to take three or a year of phys ed courses and I had taken no athletic, I

wasn't an athlete, hadn't done any of that sort of stuff in high school or

whatever, so they have this laundry list of athletic experiences that you could

take to satisfy your requirements. And so I decided well I'm going to do things

that I don't know how to do. I'm going to try something that I haven't had

before, so the first quarter I took golf. I took tennis another quarter, and

then in the winter because the options were so limited I think I wound up taking

badminton or something of that sort, which I had been familiar with before. But

anyway, golf, I had never had a golf club in a hand in my life. I'm a freshman

in college and it's beginner's golf. So I said oh this is good, so beginner's

golf, all the kids will be in a class like me that don't know how to play 00:38:00 golf.

They just wanted to learn a new experience and play golf. Our professor or

instructor was Shirley Mell, a woman, and she was serious. She didn't care

whether you had golf before or knew how to play golf. Her expectations were that

you were going to master the game, or at least to the extent that someone

beginning golf should master the game if you were going to be successful in her

course. I show up for this class and well over half of the people I would say 90

percent of the guys and I guess some girls in the class as well, probably had

been playing golf all their lives. They were just taking the course because it

was an easy grade or just because they enjoyed golf and wanted to play 00:39:00 golf

during the fall when it's nice and pretty in Blacksburg and they can go on the

golf course and play golf and satisfy their PE requirement. Well of course they

were doing very well in the class and here I am and a few others who aren't

doing well at all, just trying to learn the rudimentary facts of the game. Well,

the end of semester occurs and grades are posted and there are all these As and

Bs for all these students and I'm looking for my grade and it's a D. I'm not

surprised because of who I was up against in the class, but I was incensed,

because it seemed to me to defeat the whole purpose of the class. And I was

especially incensed because I had gotten all As and maybe a B in one other

course, that it was my first quarter in 00:40:00college and I got this D in golf. And

because you couldn't make the Dean's List if you got any grade below a C, I

wasn't on the Dean's List, even though the GPA was high enough to be, to qualify

for the Dean's List. I mean it forever infuriated me about that experience. One,

both the professor and the University would treat a course that is supposed to

be about exposing people I thought to things that they don't know how to do and

just to enhance their lifetime learning kind of experience and have it such that

someone could be deemed a failure in that kind of a course. As luck 00:41:00would have

it or what have you the very next year, and I don't know if my experience had

anything to do with this or not, I sometimes like to think that it did, they

changed all of those phys ed options from letter grades to pass fail. I would

like to think that perhaps my experience had something to do with that. I have

no idea whether it did or not.

Claire: Did you say anything to any administrators about it?

Theodore: No. No. Me, I just said, okay, now I know the game, so maybe I will

choose something the next time that I think that I will be able to do better in.

I had no idea, no thought that I would be able to master golf in one little

quarter of two or three times a week on the golf course, but it was a game that

I just wanted to learn how to play, and maybe start learning and then continue

developing on that over time, and I did. 00:42:00It didn't sour my experience from that

standpoint. I did try to continue playing and try to get better. It still didn't

get all that much better, but it's a hard game for me, but at the same time I

thought that that was not the way to be deal with--courses of that sort should

not be treated in that fashion. I'm glad that they did change it whether it was

on my account or not, but it was the right thing to do to try to draw people

into experiences like that that will benefit them outside the classroom later in

life, but not so much as to develop the next Tiger Woods or Sam Snead or Arnold

Palmer or anything of that sort. So I've never forgiven Shirley Mill for that.

[Laughs] That was definitely one of the things that really disturbed me about

that. I also had, 00:43:00I took a good number of English and writing courses, because I

also like to write and what have you. One of the first professors that I

remember having was Professor Sodini. It was a freshman English writing class,

which was an experimental writing class. At the time it was like thirty of us

who were selected to be a part of this class that he developed that they offered

for the first time. I don't know why I was selected, but I was one of the

students in that class. I had done some writing in high school so they may have

saw that. I have no idea, so anyway, all we did was write write write. It was a

lot of papers, a lot of expository writing, different kinds of writing styles

and I really enjoyed it because I like writing. 00:44:00It was a very enjoyable class

and he was a very good professor and I did very well in that class as well. But

it always, I always wondered why did I get into this class and why was I

selected to be in this class? I don't know why, but I'm glad that I did because

it helped me in other classes and also other just in life in general going

forward. Writing is a very important skill to have and also it's a different

avenue that you might engage in life later on. One of the most interesting

professors I've ever had was Professor Wieczynski in history. He taught Russian

history and I had no knowledge about Russian history or 00:45:00anything of that sort.

But one of the things that I wanted my college experience to be about was

learning about things that I didn't know anything about. I wasn't interested in

just taking safe courses or the things that I already knew a lot of things

about, so during my sophomore year when I wasn't supposed to, I took this junior

level history, Russian history course for the year. Very very very good

professor, I mean just really engaged the students and really wanted the class

to learn more about what had gone on in Russian history over time and what was

going on today. A hard course, it wasn't easy, particularly for me since I was

in the course with a lot of history majors and students who had been exposed to

a lot more history than I had been, but nonetheless I was interested in the

course 00:46:00so I just took it. There was another professor that was on the tip of my

tongue, [Professor Anderson] that I also for the same reason took German. In

high school I studied French for a couple of years, but it was fine. I mean it

was okay, but I got to college I decided I want to take something different, so

I decided to take German, and took two years of German. I had several very good

professors during those two years. Vogel, I think Professor Vogel was visiting

from German and was a professor one of those years. She was very very good. And

then the other fellow, I can't remember his name but I had him like almost the

entire year, also from Germany, taught the--I would have to look at my

transcript to remember his name -- 00:47:00Anderson, that was his name. I had him for

German for a whole year. Loved German, did very well in both of those years as

well, so that I was glad that I took a chance to take something that I didn't

know anything about and learned at least at the time another language that I was

pretty comfortable with. I haven't used it since that time, so I certainly can't

say that I could speak or am fluent in German. I know some words and can read

probably a few passages and figure out some things and that sort of thing, but

it was a good learning experience for me and a good exposure for me at that time

as well. I had lots of professors in the Economics Department. For the first

three years, I was a math major. 00:48:00In my junior year I decided that you know, I

really liked applied math. I like using math with things, but once we got into

all these very theoretical classes and trying to prove all these theorems and

that sort of thing it wasn't what I envisioned I wanted to do with math, and I

didn't do as well in those kinds of courses either. So I decided I'm not happy

doing that, so I made the decision that I needed to focus on something else

that's more appealing to me and decided upon economics, because I could still

use math in a lot of the course work there. There's a lot of statistics in math

and empirical data and that sort of thing. But also focus on policy that 00:49:00affected things worldwide in terms of economic decisions that are made, policies

that are made and how they affect both peoples' circumstances as well as macro

circumstances, national and international development. So I went to talk to the

head of the Economics Department to tell him that I was thinking about switching

from math to economics and we talked and he looked at my transcript and he says,

oh no, we want you. We will take you right away because you have all this math

background. You will be very good in this department, so I did and I wound up

enjoying it. I liked that. I liked the economics, did well there and got a

bachelor's degree. And then got an opportunity after graduating to stay for an

additional 00:50:00year at Virginia Tech as one of the five or six students who are

selected each year to what was called a management intern program. We were

placed with high level administrators within the University, the president, vice

president for Finance, vice president of Student Affairs, and those sorts of

positions. I was one of the ones selected and worked with Dr. Lavery in his

office. He was the vice president for Finance at the time, because of my

economics interest and background. As a part of that we had to work on a

graduate degree, so I decided to get a master's degree in economics and worked

with, Charlie Goetz who was my main advisor in the graduate program who was with

the Center for the Study of Public Choice, which is an economics institute on 00:51:00campus and had James Buchanan, Gordon Tullock, a number of other very prominent

professors who were world-renowned at the time actually. A couple of them, well

not a couple of them, the whole unit maybe two or three years after I graduated,

maybe ten years after I graduated because it was early [19]80s, was lured away

from Virginia Tech to go to George Mason, and the next year, the year after they

left or no more than a second year after they left Blacksburg James Buchanan was

awarded the Nobel Prize in Economics. It was just a huge huge blow to the

University, to Virginia Tech when they left here to go to George Mason, and it

was just salt in the wounds when Buchanan, who had headed up that unit here at

Virginia 00:52:00Tech won the Nobel Prize two years after he left here. [Laughs] That

shows you that strength of that department at the time, so I was very happy that

I had done that and thought about going on to get a PhD in economics and was

accepted to a PhD program at Duke and what have you, but I decided to take time

off to go to work for a couple of years with the Atomic Energy Commission after

I finished my internship here at Virginia Tech. And then after that, after being

there the first year I knew I didn't want to stay there for the rest of my life,

so during the second year that I was there I applied to law school and wound up

in law school at UVA, so that's what I did after that. The upshot I guess is I

felt like I had a lot of good professors who provided a good 00:53:00foundation, a good

grounding and Charlie Goetz was phenomenal. He was my thesis advisor in graduate

school, and as luck would have it, he--I graduated from my master's program in

[19]73 and he was lured to UVA to their law school. And like the year later or

what have you he wrote a letter of recommendation for me while he was still here

to get into law school and that sort of thing. And I show up at law school in

1975 and he's on the faculty of the UVA Law School because they wanted someone

to start, law an economics course, courses at the UVA Law School. So we got to

continue our engagement, our relationship at UVA in law school. I took a course

from him there as well while he was on the faculty there. He was a very very

prominent and very good professor both here at Virginia 00:54:00Tech and during his time

at UVA. Those are the ones that come most readily to mind. I had this other very

good economics professor and I actually tried to think of his-- I think it's

Jackson, Keith Jackson. I took several courses with him during my junior and/or

senior year. He was very very math-focused so that's probably why I liked him so

much, and very engaging, relatively young professors from Southern California as

I recall. I just liked him a lot and he really inspired me and really challenged

me as well as appreciated what I brought to the table because I had a stronger

math background than a lot of the students in the class. He really appreciated

that 00:55:00and I think that helped our connection in that regard, so I always liked

him, and I would love to know what he's doing these days and where he is and

that sort of thing. I've Googled him but I can't find him. There are a lot of

Keith Jacksons in the world.

Claire: It's one of those names. So how has your Virginia Tech education played

out in your life and in your career?

Theodore: Well, it provided me with a good foundation I guess is how I would

describe it. I didn't know specifically what I wanted to do when I came to

college or what I would be doing after college in terms of I wanted to be doing,

particularly X Y or Z. I wanted a good education and then will figure out the

job afterwards. I think the reason that I, I know the reason that I probably

gravitated ultimately to law was because of what I 00:56:00saw happening during the

[19]60s when I was growing up and the power of the law. I recognized what the

law could do. I didn't want to be a lawyer per se, but I wanted to be able to

understand and use the law for good purposes. When I graduated from law school

and one of the reasons I didn't go on in the PhD program in economics was

because I was still mulling over in my mind what it is that I really wanted to

do when I started my work world. I ultimately decided because of the law and

what I saw that it could do that that would offer me more options. If I wanted

to teach, if I wanted to get in private practice, (which was doubtful), if I

wanted to use the law in other kinds of 00:57:00professions having a legal background

would be helpful regardless of any number of areas that I might ultimately

decide to go with. So I went to law school, decided after graduating because I

had an opportunity that I had to try anyway to work with a big law firm because

that seemed to be the thing that most law school graduates, particularly places

like UVA did, went to work for a big city law firm someplace and made lots of

money and that sort of thing. Well, I wanted to see what that experience was

like and didn't want to have the thought that what if I hadn't done it and would

decide later on, oh I wish I had tried that and see what it was like. So I

figured I would do it and then I would know whether it was for me or not. So I

went to this law firm, a big law firm in Baltimore, one of 00:58:00the bigger ones in

the country these days and worked there for almost four years, a little over

four years. After the first year or two it was clear to me, I'm glad I tried

this, but I know this is not what I want to do, and that's fine. That's part of

life, part of learning, part of living, is figuring out what you don't want to

do, as well as figuring out what you do want to do. So after those couple of

years and I started thinking more and more about it, I've got to make a change

and do something else, this is not going to cut it for me. And as luck would

have it, I worked with one of the senior partners there who was very much

involved with state government and public policy issues with the state

legislature in Annapolis and he suggested to me, have you thought about trying

something like working with the General Assembly in Annapolis 00:59:00or working with

state government politicians and the governor and that sort of thing? That

appealed to me, because I could see that that was building on the theme that I

thought about earlier-that is using the law for better purposes, to make things

better for others. With a legal background and working with people who make

policy decisions and laws affecting peoples' lives, having some role in that

process would fulfill my desire and need to use the law in a good way to help

others, and that's what I wound up doing. I got a chance to go to work in

Annapolis with the General Assembly after having worked in Baltimore for four

and a half or so years and have been there ever since. 01:00:00I will be leaving there

probably in the next year or two. I'm retiring, but it's been a good career to

have worked in that environment for the last thirty years or so. It was the

right fit for me. That's all you can ask for out of life I think, trying to find

whatever works for you and pursue it.

Claire: So when somebody says the words 'Virginia Tech' what is the first thing

that you think of?

Theodore: I describe it as a very special place. I mean there really is

something about this place that gets in your bones. It gets in your inner being.

I've been to lots of college campuses over the years and lots of places and

there are lots of good places, lots of good colleges over America as well. But

there 01:01:00really is something different about this place. It has the capacity to

wrap itself around you and sort of make you feel that this is what college

should be about. This is what the college experience should be about. This is

what it should feel like. This is what it should look like. This is what it is

all about. If you're designing a college experience or from the ground up this

is college. This is what people should think about as college. I don't know if

it's the setting. There's a character, there is a feel, there is a 01:02:00 comfort,

there is a friendliness, there is all these qualities that are embedded in this

place that just make it a comfortable place to go to school and to learn and to

experience what college is about over a four or five or six-year period, however

long students decide to stay here these days to get a degree. Luckily I did it

in four years. That was sort of the norm back then, but it's not so much the

norm anymore. It's hard to describe. I've heard any number of people say over

the years that when they come to this campus and it's for the first time or

deciding whether to go to college someplace and they come here, they know almost

immediately once they are here, oh this is the place. This is where I want 01:03:00 to

spend my four years. There is something in the air here. It's hard to put your

finger on, but there's definitely a quality to this institution and to the

surroundings that envelopes people and makes them feel comfortable, feel like

they are at home, that they could be happy here, that they could live here and

thrive and work here and want to go to college here. Whatever it is I hope it

never loses it, because it's a special quality that this place has I think.

Claire: Thank you. Are you still involved with the school?

Theodore: Oh yes, yes. I've been involved with many volunteer activities over

the years. I was on the Alumni Board for six years back in the [19]90s. I worked

with my local alumni association back in 01:04:00Maryland as well as the Hokie Club back

in Maryland. I'm currently the treasurer of the Hokie Club in Maryland. I was on

the University's foundation board, the endowment board for six years in the

2000s. I'm currently on the advisory board for the College of Liberal Arts and

Sciences. I have football and basketball season tickets so I'm here all the

time. I have a second home here in Blacksburg, so I'm here as often as I can get

here. I like to and have described myself as Hokie to the core to any number of

people. I mean I had a great law school experience at Virginia, I don't knock it

at all, but I have not become a Wahoo! I'm still a Hokie and have always been

and I will always be a Hokie. I have a special place in my heart for this place.

Claire: Why do you think so many Virginia Tech graduates become engaged alumni?

Theodore: I think because of what I described earlier. 01:05:00They come here and this

place just gets in their bones. They are able to have a very positive

comfortable experience here by and large. I'm sure there's some students who

don't, but the overwhelming majority I think come to appreciate and come to

understand how special this place is and it casts a spell on them as it were

that causes them to want to remain connected and have it continue to play a part

in their lives and for them to continue to be a part of its being. They exhibit

that through their volunteer and supportive activities in many ways that they

can and to the University's credit, however, they've been able to nurture 01:06:00 and

cause it to come about. It's a special thing that I hope that is never lost. I

think we've been blessed with good leaders and good persons carrying forth the

University's mission and spirit and personality over the years. We're getting a

great infusion of new exciting talent that has not been associated with Virginia

Tech in the past so that I hope that those individuals learn to accept and

continue and support and maintain that same sense of community and family and

engagement and special bond that has been built up through the generations to

this point, and I think they will. I've heard enough from 01:07:00some of our current

new leaders to convince me that they are getting it. They appreciate and know

what special kind of place they have here and will continue in that same vein.

Claire: So what would you like people to know about Virginia Tech?

Theodore: Oh, I think the main thing I would like them to know is that this is

as I said a special place. We are blessed to have an institution of this quality

and this personality in this state that a significant number of students can try

to participate in and be a part of. 01:08:00I want Virginia Tech to continue to be a

leader in advancing knowledge worldwide and I want its stature to continue to

evolve and it is continuing to evolve and its reputation is growing all the

time. I don't want it to ever lose the special kind of qualities that I've

described earlier, and I don't think that it will. I want greatness for this

place, and I think it has all the ingredients to achieve greatness. By becoming,

by both being what it is now and continue to get even better over time I think

it can set a good example for 01:09:00other institutions of what higher education

institutions should be like, should be. And if it can sort of take that role,

that model and bring it more into the forefront both nationally and

internationally as to what a great institution should be all about. I think that

would be its greatest legacy to try to have it self-replicated by other

institutions worldwide or innovation world-wide or whatever over time by

demonstrating through its own personality, its own example of what a great

institution can be like. I think that would be a lasting legacy that would make

me very happy.

Claire: What would you like people to know about you?

Theodore: [Laughs] Ah, geez, my goodness. Oh dear dear dear. I don't know, that

I have lived a good life, tried to 01:10:00help others, tried to be engaged, tried to

leave the world a better place than it was before I came. I don't seek fame or

fortune. I'm a very private person actually, so I don't want to be out on the

front ranks or having people point to me and that sort of thing. I want to live

by example and just have other people look to me and say, oh, he's a good

example of the kind of person that I want to be. Not necessarily famous or rich

or what have you, but someone who by treating others well, by helping others

when he could, 01:11:00by trying to live a good--be a good model for what a good citizen

should be, that's the kind of person that I want to be. That would be a fine

legacy as far as I'm concerned.

Claire: Thank you. Is there anything that you thought I would ask that I didn't

or that you want to talk about?

Theodore: Not really. I think we covered a lot of groundwork, a lot of material.

I guess I want to know what is the purpose of this project? What are you going

to do with this project?

Claire: Oh okay. So this project is part of an effort to collect Virginia Tech

history, so we're doing in Special Collections is we are building our Virginia

Tech history archive. 01:12:00So this project, the oral histories will be deposited in

the special collections archive. I believe that they will be online, because

what Special Collections does is they will have like a site for each oral

history project where you can like pull up the transcript and listen to the audio.

Theodore: Okay. Very good. Is there a particular focus on the oral history

project? Are you targeting specific populations or people or why was I called?

Claire: This project is generally for Virginia Tech alumni.

Theodore: Okay. How many alumni are you targeting for this particular project,

there's no limit?

Claire: I don't think there's a limit, 01:13:00 yeah.

Theodore: Okay. That's fine. From different eras, I presume?

Claire: Hmm.

Theodore: Very good.

Claire: All right. Well thank you.

Theodore: Thank you.

[End of interview]