VT Stories Oral History with Rhonda and Phil Rogers, April 6, 2017 (Ms2016-015)

Ren Harman: But we'll go ahead and get started. I'll just say good evening.

This is Ren Harman, the project manager for VT Stories. Today is April 6 at

about 6:15 p.m. So the first question is--this is the only time I'll prompt

you--if you can just say, in a complete sentence, just say your name, when you

were born and where you were born.

Rhonda Rogers: My name is Rhonda Miller Rogers, and I was born in Wytheville,

Virginia, and what was the other question?

Ren: Date.

Rhonda: Of what? When I was born?

Ren: When you were born, yeah. If you don't mind.

Rhonda: June 11, 1952.

Ren: Okay, great. Thank you. So kind of the first question is can you just tell

me a little bit about your family, and growing up in Wytheville?

Rhonda: Yeah. I great up in Wytheville, of course. Family of four. There were

only two children, myself and my brother, 00:01:00who--I don't know if you would--my

brother was Roy Stanley, the sportscaster for Channel 7 for many years. Grew up

during the core '60s, and in a town, small town where...very segregated town. We

integrated in 1966.

Prior to that, there still was not much difference between the color line

because it was a small town, so everybody was kind of all meshed in together.

Grew up where families gathered on the front porches of each other's parents'

homes. Played under the street lights until 11:00 at night. A lot of baseball,

kickball, kick the can, those types of games. I went to Scott Memorial School

from kindergarten through 00:02:00seventh grade.

And then we integrated in 1966, where I...Scott Memorial became the middle

school, so I was at Scott Memorial. My brother went to George Wythe High School

that year because he was in the ninth grade. Not a whole lot to tell. You know,

I grew up in a small town. One of the biggest things, I think, that we had come

to Wytheville was we had a farm baseball team, so that was a big deal. In the

summertime everybody went to baseball games. I was in the band. I was a

majorette. Yeah, that's about it.

Ren: What did your mother and father do?

Rhonda: My dad did...he had several jobs. He worked for Wythe County Motors,

which soon became Peterson Ford. He did that for many years.

And then in 00:03:001970, I guess, he was hired as a clerk in the liquor store, so he

worked at the liquor store from--which was a really big deal back in the '70s

for a black man to become in retail. And he did that until he retired in 19...I

think around '92, '93, when he retired.

My mom mostly did domestic work, some waitressing, along with Daddy, because

even though he had an 8:00 to 5:00 job, Daddy always had a job on the side. So

he bar tended parties, he waited at George's Hotel, he did a lot of handiwork

for older people in the community. And then Mama's last job she was the

executive housekeeper at the Holiday Inn before she passed away. And she passed

away when I was 21 years old, right after I moved to Blacksburg. 00:04:00Daddy just recently passed away three years ago. And of course my brother passed

away in 2002.

Ren: Okay. Were you and your brother pretty close?

Rhonda: Yes, yeah. There was a year and a half between us, so yeah.

Ren: Was he older?

Rhonda: He was older. And the older we got, the closer we got, of course. I was

blessed that he lived in Roanoke. And I had Daddy in Wytheville, so I was kind

of in the middle. Came to Blacksburg in 1973, not knowing that this would end up

being my home. But it worked out really good for the family because I was kind

of in the middle of both of them, so we were able to get together a lot for

holidays and things like that.

Ren: What are some of your favorite memories growing up? Let's just think of

your school years.

Rhonda: I will say that...first of all, I loved school. 00:05:00And I guess one of my

favorite memories was probably my senior year, when I did get to be a majorette.

And once again, I was the first black majorette. That had never happened before.

And we had a recreation center with a white recreation center and with the black

recreation center.

And that's where a lot of memories are. It was right down the hill from our

house and it had a jukebox, it had a ping pong table, it had a TV room, and

that's what we did every Friday and Saturday night, was go to the rec center.

And so a lot of good memories at the recreation center. That's where we gathered

as kids.

Ren: So you graduated high school, I guess, in 1970?

Rhonda: I graduated in 1970, yeah.

Ren: So you're actually the same age as my parents. 00:06:00So growing up, and maybe for

listeners who don't exactly know, can you kind of talk a little bit about the

economy of Wytheville, and kind of the demographics of that area?

Rhonda: There was definitely a line drawn between the rich and the not so well

off. And when you're a kid you don't notice that. And I can honestly say that

probably back then we weren't poor, but we also weren't rich, either. I never

did without. I had everything I needed. When we integrated, though, that's when

the differences really showed up in the haves and the have nots because things

happened like a lot of the wealthy families chose 00:07:00for their kids to go to

private schools because they didn't want them to go to school with us.

You would see situations where...most of us, most of the African American

families is what I would maybe call middle class. None of us were dirt poor. But

it also wasn't uncommon for households to be separated. And when I say that, I

mean, for instance, our house had two bedrooms. I grew up in a house with two

bedrooms, the second bedroom which my dad added on himself. So for the first 14

years of my life--and that's exaggerating. Probably from the time I was five to

14 there was a woman who was my mother's godmother who lived behind us, so I

slept at her 00:08:00 house.

I didn't sleep in my parents house until--we called her Mother--until she passed

away. And that was common back then for some kids to stay with an aunt or some

kids to stay with their grandmother or something just because the space was

small. But that still didn't make us feel poor, because like I said, we always

had what we needed.

We were always able to go to the movies. We were always able to go to the ball

games. We were in the band, so we were always able to get our instruments. Now

granted Daddy probably had to work two or three jobs for that to happen, but I

wouldn't say--Wytheville was probably a middle class town, for the most part, as

a whole. The really, really wealthy people, there were not a whole, whole lot of them.

Ren: What did most people kind of do in the town?

Rhonda: There were a couple places that most people worked. If you weren't a

school teacher 00:09:00or a doctor or a nurse, to work at Chitwood Memorial Hospital,

there was the American Screw Company and there was a factory called [Narrow]

Fabrics. Those were the two major industries in Wytheville. And then there was a

place called The [Pipe] Shop. And that's where most people worked. And if they

didn't work in those three places in Wytheville, they worked at Radford Arsenal.

So those were the top employers for folks in that area.

Ren: So you integrated I guess about the time you were entering high school, right?

Rhonda: I was in the eighth grade.

Ren: So I'm sure there are some stories from that time.

Rhonda: That was--the transition for me was easy. And the reason it was easy was

because the eighth grade stayed at the black school, so we felt like we are in

our school, they are coming to our school. So the transition for me wasn't quite

as hard as it was for my brother and those who went to George Wythe. 00:10:00The biggest gap, I think, though, that resulted was clearly the lack of

education the black kids got compared to what the white kids got, just because

our teachers didn't have the resources to keep up with what was going on in the

white schools.

So even still, because I was in the eighth grade, I was able to get a little bit

more of that background before I went to high school, whereas the summer after

ninth grade a majority of the black kids ended up in summer school catching up

with math and English, just because they were so far behind. But after that

first year it was smooth sailing. There were never any issues, never any issues

as far as rioting or fighting or people not getting along.

Like I said, the biggest...the only way that you could tell that there was a

little bit of friction was 00:11:00when the rich folks pulled their kids out, and the

fact that they were very careful with which black kids got in classes with the

rich kids that were left, if that makes any sense. They were very selective

about that.

And my brother and I were fortunate enough that because Daddy did all--and Mama

both--did all those things on the side where they worked with pretty prominent

white people, they felt like Roy and [Carly's] kids are good kids. So they were

very selective about the kids they selected to do that.

Ren: Your father's name was?

Rhonda: Roy.

Ren: Roy?

Rhonda: Roy, and my mom's name was Carly. And it's funny because when I think

about growing up in Wytheville and things that you don't pay attention to until

you get older is that my grandmother worked at the Greyhound Bus station.

Wytheville probably had one of the best bus terminals in southwest Virginia.

It was really, really nice. It was owned by 00:12:00the Pucketts. It had a wonderful

cafeteria. However, we couldn't go in the cafeteria. So it was always ironic

that I couldn't go in the cafeteria where my granny was cooking the food.

But every Sunday my brother and I would go on Sunday and go in the kitchen and

eat Sunday dinner at the bus station. [Durham's] Restaurant, blacks didn't go in

Durham's, but [Marian] Rogers, a black man, was the head chef. So it was that

kind--but that's the way it was. So we didn't...that's just the way it was.

Ren: And as you got older, you probably...did you kind of start thinking back on

some of these things and...?

Rhonda: By the time we integrated, it was one of those things where it was like

we don't want to go in there anyway, and so that...I mean, we didn't make a big

deal out of it. It's just that it was like, you know, that's the way it was.

That's the way it was.

And then, you know, in the '60s, that's when the civil rights movement really

geared up, 00:13:00so that kind of heightened your awareness as to what was really going

on. But still in Wytheville it wasn't...there wasn't a whole lot of dissent, I

don't think, among peoples. Everybody still seemed to get along okay.

Ren: When you were in high school, how did they teach about, or did they teach

about civil rights?

Rhonda: No.

Ren: It was never mentioned?

Rhonda: No. It was never mentioned. I had a civics teacher in the eighth grade

who, his name was Mr. Parsons, who touched on it a little bit. But after that,

hm-mmm. It was American history. Virginia history was in elementary school, and

that's when we were still segregated, so there was nothing, no.

Ren: Right. A lot of it whitewashed and things, right.

Rhonda: Yeah, yeah. No talk about that. You know, things that happened, once

again, I 00:14:00think that you think about later. My senior year, when I decided to go

to school, typically in Wytheville you would go to Wytheville Community College

and then transfer somewhere else. And I can remember Miss [Greaver], who was the

guidance counselor, when I asked for the application, she wanted to know why.

You know, that kind of stuff.

Which, at the time, I was like what do you mean why? But, you know, there were

some folks who had that mindset that, oh, you're not going to do anything but

either work in somebody's house as a domestic or work in one of these factories.

But once again, that was hindsight that I thought about, oh...

Ren: Why would she ask me the question.

Rhonda: Why would she ask me that question, yeah.

Ren: What was the process of moving to Blacksburg? You kind of mentioned that earlier.

Rhonda: Okay, the way I got to Blacksburg was after my first year at WCC I

decided I didn't 00:15:00want to be a school teacher, but then I knew--

Ren: Okay, so that was your career plan?

Rhonda: That was my career plan, was to be a teacher, but then I also knew I

didn't want to work in a factory. So I thought I've got to learn how to do

something that can not put me in a factory, so I majored in the secretarial

science program. And so that's a two year program. Our senior year Judy

[Reidinger], who just retired from Tech a few years ago--her son is Scott

Thomas, the baseball coach.

Ren: Okay.

Rhonda: Judy Reidinger and another person from personnel at Tech came to

Wytheville Community College, talked to us and tested us. And before they left

they said if anybody's interested in a job at VPI, is what they called it back

then, if anybody's interested let us know and we'll set up interviews for you.

Five of us decided we'd do it. 00:16:00And out of the five of us, up until two years

ago, three of us were still here. Ann [Crate] retired a couple of years ago, but

myself and Jane Harrison are still here, still working at Tech.

Ren: So these were all women?

Rhonda: Mm-hmm, all women. Bonnie [Burkett] lasted two weeks. Nancy Morris

stayed three years and then she got married and moved back to Galax, and myself,

Jane and Ann stayed. And it's history. That's how we got down here.

Ren: So you started at Virginia Tech 19...?

Rhonda: June 19, 1973.

Ren: 1973.

Rhonda: Yes.

Ren: Wow. So we're going to put a pin in this conversation because I want to

come back to some of this. You're up. So I guess kind of the same question that

I asked Rhonda, is if you could just state your full name, 00:17:00when you were born,

and where you were born.

Phil Rogers: Philip Gary Rogers, born in Gate City, Virginia June 30, 1954.

Ren: Okay. Oh, so a couple years younger. [Laughs.]

Rhonda: Mm-hmm.

Ren: Can you tell me just a little bit--some of the similar questions--can you

tell me a little bit about growing up in Gate City, and your mother and father

and family?

Phil: Well, we had...I have three...two older brothers, two older sisters, and

one younger brother. And growing up we all, as, like I said, family, we all

lived in sections, certain sections, and most of them, aunts, uncles, you know,

would go from house to house as, you know, went like that. And then Gate City

was really a football town, so all four of us were athletes, the brothers.

So we kind of got into sports 00:18:00at a young age, you know, [row ten] and all that

little stuff. And, you know, we played, and my mom, my father, he was in the

Army. He worked sparingly at different jobs. I don't know how you would cover it

back then, but we really didn't look at it as... But our mama was the rock of

the family, as usual.

And, you know, like I said, we had aunts and uncles who, they'd help out if we

needed anything. I mean, we didn't go without. And like I said, we'd play

sports, and when you play sports, you pretty well know. And in the community we

was in, and later on going to school, like I said, we integrated. I was in the

sixth grade when we integrated, so it wasn't a big change for us, I mean, for me

because we was into sports, you know. 00:19:00And we just went on from there.

Ren: From an early age, did you...were you kind of a stand out athlete, did you

feel like, and did you--yeah.

Phil: So I had two older brothers, and we sort of all played the same sports.

Ren: Oh, okay.

Phil: So it was just like, I don't know, maybe a competition between us, in a

sense. But early on I kind of...I was the weakling in the family. I got sick. I

had some kind of kidney thing, so I really didn't...for about two or three years

I couldn't play sports, and I had to watch them. So, you know, I was in and out

of the hospital. I got home schooled because for a year I didn't go to school.

When I was in grade school. And my grandmother was my teacher.

Ren: 00:20:00 Wow.

Phil: So...but it was awkward, you know, staying home. They were out doing all

this and I couldn't do it.

Ren: You couldn't do it, right.

Phil: But I don't know what happened, but after a year or two it went away, so

gradually they said I could start playing sports. So that's what I did, and...

Ren: What sports did you play? I mean, obviously--

Phil: Oh, we played them all. We played football, basketball, baseball. Not much

track, but we did. But, you know, we played everything that was there.

Ren: Did you have a favorite growing up? Was it football?

Phil: I guess. Football was mine. Basketball was my...Stanley, he's a year older

than I am, and Anthony, he was a baseball player. And of course Stanley could

play. He was one of the best baseball players around.

What I just did would be, you know, 00:21:00I...I just played them all. It didn't matter what.

Ren: Loved it, loved sports.

Phil: Yeah, I love sports.

Ren: So I also come from a pretty large family, youngest of five. What was it

like growing up in a big family with that many brothers and a sister?

Phil: Well, we was together. I mean, we had our times.

Ren: Right. [Laughs.]

Phil: But like she said, we...somehow, you know, we really didn't think about it

at the time, but I didn't stay at home. I stayed with my aunt, my other brother

stayed with one of my aunts, and my sister stayed with another aunt, so we

really...you know, all together, we wasn't there all the time, but somehow we

was always staying with a aunt or a grandmother. And it was just...it was

natural. I mean, we didn't think anything of it.

Ren: Gate City, I guess, is maybe a 00:22:00little similar to Wytheville, would you say?

Phil: It's small. And you didn't have much to do in Gate City. The thing was,

you know, was about eight miles from Kingsport, Tennessee, which is Tennessee,

so that's where the jobs were. They had the Eastman, they had three real big

companies. Powder Press, they had Kingsboro Press. That's where a lot of Gate

City people worked.

Ren: I've spent a lot of time in Kingsport, especially in the hospital with my

own father.

Phil: So that's about it.

Ren: Let me readjust here so I can see you better. So when you were in high

school, obviously sports, you were doing athletics and things. Led Gate City to

a state championship, am I 00:23:00 correct?

Phil: Yes, we did win state champion in 1970.

Ren: So my question, I guess, is how did you end up at Virginia Tech, I guess is

the easiest way to ask.

Phil: Well, it's a [long] question. When we was going to school, back then we

had one state championship, and see now they got three or four different

divisions. And like I said, when we was going to school we played a ten game

season, and we was 10 and 0 ranked number so, so, so, so. And we really

didn't...almost didn't get in the playoffs because they had some kind of a

number system or something. You had to have so many points. And we played three

Tennessee teams which was triple A, and that's what got us over.

Ren: Wow.

Phil: So, you know, like nowadays you can be 1 and 4 and still 00:24:00make the

playoffs. Not in them days. We was 10 and 0 and we barely made it. And then like

I say, we went 13 and 0, won the state championship. And as far as going to

school, I mean, I didn't think anything about going to college until maybe my

senior year. I mean, I just...we just played sports and that was just something

I liked to do going to school.

And then as far as Tech goes, it was ironic. I had a cousin, which was Michael

[Wolf]. He was about six-two, six-three, about 220, solid as a rock. Now he was

a good defensive player. Now see back when I was going to school, and even for

Tech, Tech wanted big players. Now see, I'm small. I was what, five-ten and a

half, 168 pounds when I come out of high school.

So when the recruits coming around, 00:25:00they was really after my cousin, and I was

just almost like a afterthought. So they said if they got him they'd get me. I

mean, if they got--

Ren: Him they'd--

Phil: If they got...yeah, it was me, 'cause they said he'd go where I'd go. So

we kind of talked around and we had a couple recruits come down, and we went on

a couple [conversions] up here. And what had happened, it was funny. We come up

for a visit and we talked to the head coach, and he come in and said how do you

like the program, how do you like this. Oh, you know, it's fine.

The first time we'd been. The first time we'd ever been on a plane ride. You

know, it was good. He said, well, how do you like it? I said, well, we like it

good. And then he just put out his hand and said welcome to Virginia Tech. I

looked at my cousin, he looked at me, and we kind of said, what...? Did we 00:26:00 sign

or what?

Ren: [Laughs.]

Phil: So we get back home and they're waiting on coaches, waiting on this, and

said for signing. I said we didn't...

Ren: Wow.

Phil: We didn't sign anything. We didn't talk to nobody yet. Because, you know,

I had a couple trips to different colleges. I went to Tennessee and some other

schools. We really didn't commit, but somehow it led to that, and we had to say

no, we didn't say we'd come to Virginia Tech. We said we'd like to pursue it. So

I think... And they sent... What was strange, they sent the trainer, Eddie

Ferrell, which turned out to be one of the...

Ren: It's okay.

Phil: Eddie was like a second dad. Later on in... 'Cause he took care of a lot

of people. Eddie was one of a kind. 00:27:00You just had to know Eddie. He was, you know, whatever you needed Eddie would

take care of it, or he'd make sure you got it. And we got to know Eddie. And

then, you know, after we come to Tech. And see, like I said, still I was small.

They wanted big backs, you know, 220 and six-one, six-two, 220.

So when I come here, you know, me and my cousin both played in the all star

game, first all star game for high school. We played here at Salem. So when I

come up, you know, I've caught maybe four or five passes in my life, but [come

in], they said you're a receiver. I looked at him and said, receiver? He said

yeah, you're a receiver. And, you know, and when I played in the [all star], I

played at receiver. So when we come to Tech, I was a receiver.

Ren: Wow.

Phil: And it was strange. And, you know, Tech, back in them days, 00:28:00you know,

freshmen had to go against the first string defense and stuff like that. So

whenever we ran goal line, whatever, they...[was me to] a running back. They

said Rogers, you go to halfback. I said okay. So we did pretty good, you know,

like that. And then one day the--Coach Charlie Coffey was coach. And he said

Coach Coffey wants to see you.

So I come and I said, well, what I did and done now? He looked at me, and he was

shorter than I was, and he looked up at me, and he had real thick glasses. He

said you did pretty good down [today] in the scrimmage, he said. How would you

like to switch to running back? And I looked at him and said I've been a running

back all my life, you know. I said yeah, fine. So from then on I was a running

back. That's how, you know, my career started here.

Ren: Let me back up a little bit. Were 00:29:00you, out of your siblings, were you the

first one to--

Phil: Go to college? No.

Ren: Okay.

Phil: My oldest brother, Anthony, he went to Virginia State, I think. Then

Stanley, my other brother, he went to Bluefield State. And then later on my

younger brother went here to Tech with me. So we all had a little college

experience, put it that way.

Ren: Can you take me to the moment you told your mother and father that you were

going to Virginia Tech to play football? Can you remember that?

Phil: Well, I can say when I got there, my head coach, Harry Fry, which was a

legend in his time, he was at the house, my mom was there. I think my...my dad

passed, 'cause when I was...when I was a sophomore or junior? He passed at 43.

And they was there.

We come in, and we said what's everybody doing here? And that's when they said

we'd signed. I guess they'd 00:30:00called somebody. He was...Eddie was... Paul Adams

was another football player from our area. He lived in [unintelligible]

00:30:11, Virginia. He had just signed him. And I guess they made him...they

called Eddie and told him, 'cause it's just what, 30 miles from where I lived.

He was going to come over and sign me, too. So they was there.

And we got there, and we looked at them and said no, we didn't sign anything. We

hadn't really even, you know. But after talking to the coach and this and that,

this and that, we finally decided we would, which was, you know, [the best]. But

that's how that went around. I had no idea that I was going to Tech until... We

were just out there trying to, you know, we was going to see all the schools and

make a decision.

Ren: And I guess the rest is history, so to speak.

Phil: Yeah.

Ren: 00:31:00Let me ask you if you can...well, let me back up a little bit. Your first

memories--and this is kind of the group conversation part--your first memory,

whoever wants to field this question, of Virginia Tech. What do you remember

about it? What do you remember--the look, the smell, the feel? Because you...and

then I'll...well, first I want to maybe ask--I'm all over the place--first I

want to ask how did you two meet?

Phil: That's probably on my part. I've got a habit of misplacing things, so

I...you know, keys and I...it seems like every other week I'd lose my key. And

when I'd go to Housing, she was in Housing, I believe, at the time, or close to

it. And I'd pass by and I'd just see her in the office when I had to go back and

get a key.

And you know how you just speak and...like that. 00:32:00That's the first time I met

her. And, you know, and I think after that she was dating somebody from--

Rhonda: I was at a party.

Phil: It was at a party.

Ren: Okay.

Rhonda: It was homecoming.

Phil: Yeah. I mean, but we partied, you know, but... But that's how I first met

her, is I'd seen her when I was walking to get a key to...

Ren: Right. What is your memory of...? [Laughs.]

Rhonda: That's exactly what happened. He stopped at the door and just kind of, I

guess, introduced himself. I don't really even know what the conversation was.

And, you know, we said hello, and he said maybe you can...

Phil: [unintelligible] 00:32:50 something.

Rhonda: Maybe you can cook dinner for me sometime or something. And then he went

his merry way and that was the end of that.

And then it was probably a couple weeks 00:33:00later. It was Homecoming, and there was

a party at one of the apartment complexes in the clubhouse. And then that was

the second time I think we came in contact with each other, and he asked me to

dance. But while we were dancing, the police came, I think, because there was a

noise violation or something. And once again it was like okay, see ya.

And I was friends with football players, but I did not know him. I didn't even

know his name. And about a few days later I got a phone call from one of the

football players that knew me who said somebody asked for your phone number, and

I was like oh, okay, whatever. And I guess he called me, and we went roller

skating. Do you remember that?

Phil: Yes.

Rhonda: That was the first date. 00:34:00We went roller skating.

Ren: Oh, my gosh.

Rhonda: And the rest is history.

Ren: Yeah. [Laughs.] That's the theme of this conversation, right?

Rhonda: So that's kind of how that happened.

Ren: So was that your freshman year, do you believe?

Rhonda: He'd been here for...no, you'd been here. That was your senior year.

That was in '75.

Ren: Okay.

Rhonda: Yeah, that was your senior year 'cause I only knew you for the last

three football games of your career here at Tech. So I'd been here since '73 and

he'd been here since '72, and I'd never seen him.

Phil: I didn't get out much. I really didn't.

Rhonda: He didn't come out. He really didn't. I didn't know who he was. And even

after I knew other football players, and went to football games, but back then I

didn't...I wasn't really paying attention. So I didn't know who he was.

Ren: When you were telling the story 00:35:00about being asked to switch to running

back, that was--if my research--that was going into your senior--

Phil: First year.

Ren: That was your freshman year, okay.

Phil: That was my freshman year.

Ren: Okay. And you set the school rushing record, and I believe I have this

correct, in 19--

Phil: I think I was the first one to gain 1,000 yards.

Ren: Yeah, 1,036 yards.

Phil: Yes.

Ren: And then you moved to quarterback your senior year, so how did that...what

was that story?

Phil: Well, Coffey left and Coach Sharpe come, and he was coming from Alabama,

and they mostly ran a wishbone. So, I mean, I dabbled with...I mean, I could

always throw the ball in high school, whatever. And we, you know, you're out

there playing, throwing the ball. And he looked at me and said...he just, one

summer he said I want you to consider playing quarterback. And I said, well, I

said what do you mean? He said we're going to run the 00:36:00wishbone. And that's when

the wishbone come in. And I'll said I'll try it. And that's how I started.

Ren: In that year, your senior year, I guess, when you were a quarterback--

Phil: '75, yeah.

Ren: --finished with an 8 and 3 record, correct?

Phil: Yes, it was... I mean, we should have went 10 and 1 that year, but we had

some slips up. But we was...I mean, that's the best year we'd had since I was at

Tech, you know, and...

Ren: Were there bowl games?

Phil: We figured we should have got a bowl game, but we didn't. We thought with

Sharpe's connection with this. But somehow we got left out.

Ren: Yeah. 'Cause back then it's not like it is today.

Phil: Yeah. I was not like it is today.

Ren: There wasn't 50 bowls, you know.

Phil: No.

Ren: There's, you know, if you have a 6 and 6 record now most of the time you're

getting in, right?

Phil: Yeah. That's what it's all about.

Ren: Right. I guess 00:37:00what was your major?

Phil: I was in just physical education or...I really didn't...I mean, I just

went through school.

Ren: Yeah. We joked about this earlier.

Phil: Seriously, it was just...you know, I didn't really have any direction. I

didn't apply myself. I was just there.

Ren: So I'll let you off the hot seat for a little bit. So during your time, so

1973, right?

Rhonda: Mm-hmm.

Ren: Until 2017, that's a large, you know, that's a lot amount of...a lot of

time, right? I guess kind of my question is 00:38:00what was your impression of the

university when you first got here as the first African American secretary?

Rhonda: First of all, I did not know that, I don't think. And, you know, I came

with my friends. There were five of us. So my roommate was Jane, one of the five

of us. And it was really my first job. I had work-study jobs when I was in

school, but that was really my first job. I did not work when I was a kid, I did

not work when I was in high school, so that was really my first job. And I think

the big deal, the biggest deal of that for me was the pride of all my parents,

that I got out of Wytheville and I wasn't working in a factory.

And to be an office was a big 00:39:00deal back then, to be able to work in an office.

And the whole thing with Virginia Tech was it was just big. It's funny how big

it seemed compared to how big it is now, but it was just really big. I can

remember coming down here to visit when I was in school and we went to the

Coliseum, the stadium, and they let us get on the elevator and go up to the...

Like from Wytheville? That was huge. So to come down here and work, that was a

pretty big deal. But then it was also a fun thing to do because I was young

enough to still be a part of the night life, the social life.

So yeah. It was 00:40:00just able...it was still a surprise because I was able to go to

school and get out and get a good job. And of course I thought I was making a

lot of money. What I didn't realize when I came to work, because I'd never had a

job before, was that your salary is not really your salary. So I didn't have as

much money as I thought I would have because I didn't understand the whole tax

and Social Security thing.

But yeah, it was just a big deal just to be down here. I did not think I

would...like I said, I did not think I'd be here forever because my best friend

from home was a nurse, and the plan was for us always to move to the city. And

she did get to the city. She moved to Maryland. So I never expected to stay at

Tech. It was just kind of stepping stone to maybe something bigger and better. 00:41:00But I ended up staying here.

Ren: Forty years in the Division of Student Affairs?

Rhonda: It will be 44 in June, yeah. And the whole time I have been in the

Division of Student Affairs, yeah.

Ren: Just in kind of various positions?

Rhonda: Yeah. In various positions. But for 30 of these 40 years I had the same

boss, for 30 years, Ed Spencer, who was at one point the Director of Housing and

Residence Life and then became the Associate Vice President for Student Affairs.

So I worked with him from '83 to the summer of 2012.

And then Ed retired. But those three, for three of...the last three years he

became...when Dr. Hikes passed away, Ed became the Vice President for Student

Affairs, so I moved with him to Burruss. So I was in Burruss Hall for five years

working for the Vice 00:42:00President for Student Affairs.

Ren: So we've interviewed Dr. Spencer.

Rhonda: Oh, okay.

Ren: Early, early on in this project. Just seems to be just a wonderful person,

and what--

Rhonda: Yeah.

Ren: --I mean, what was...?

Rhonda: He... You know, when you work with somebody for that long, it really

does become more than a work relationship. You know, we went through me having

kids, to him having kids. We went through difficult times together with sickness

and losing loved ones. We also worked together so closely, it really is true

that when you work with somebody that closely you think just like they do, and

that's what happened to us. So it was bittersweet when he retired because I was

like I can't believe you'd just [leave me]. 00:43:00But he was probably...well, he was probably only the third boss I'd ever had,

because I came in '73 and I worked with...before him my boss was Roland Wheeler.

He was the director of housing before Ed came. So Ed was pretty much...my whole

career was spent with him, for the most part. He was one of the best...he was

the most caring person. He always remembered...he always made it clear that no

matter what, family comes first. So I never had a problem if my kids got sick,

if my kids had a game, if I needed to leave early, if Philip had a problem with

his family, if we needed to go. I never had those issues with him.

He was just a really 00:44:00family oriented person who had his priorities straight, and

kind of helped you keep it straight yourself. On the other hand it kind of

spoils you because when he retired, I had to adjust to Dr. Perillo, who came in

and hit the ground running. And I'll be honest with you, probably for the last

few years before she got there, Ed and I had kind of been just skirting along,

like was grand. So it was really an adjustment to work with her. And we worked

well together, but it wasn't the same. And she knew it wasn't the same and I

knew it wasn't the same.

And so we sat down and had a conversation one day 00:45:00about it. It was never a goal

for me to be in upper administration because I kind of liked it at the level

where I was at. So we talked about it and we do... We have a big deal in Student

Affairs now. It's StrengthsQuest, where you figure out what your strengths are.

All five of my strengths are relational, all of them. So to be in an office with

very little student contact--and I had an office to myself.

And for somebody who's a communicator, and an includer, positivity, harmony and

woo, that's hard. And so she said, you know, we need to really think about

if...you know, I'm not asking you to leave, but if we can come up with something

that you really think you might like, would you...?

And I was like yeah, 'cause I was ready 00:46:00to...the pressure was more than I could

handle, to be honest with you. And at the time my dad was here with us, and he

was not well, and so I was dealing with a sick daddy, and the pressure from

work. It was getting to be a lot. And that's how I ended up in Multicultural

Programs and Services, which ended up being the perfect fit, it really, really did.

So I've been happy to say that the last what, I will be there four years in

August and five, 'cause I plan to retire very soon, has been doing something I

really like. There's tons of student contact in Squires, as you can imagine, and

the nature of the work that we do, where we advocate for underrepresented

students, there's purpose to that.

You can see the results of when a student comes in that's stressed and is scared

and 00:47:00nervous, and they've been...they feel like, in some ways, they've been

discriminated against, or if they've had a racial slur thrown at them that

there's a place they can come to where they feel safe. So it ended up being a

really positive move for me to do that. So that's where I'm at now. And it's

been good.

Ren: You received a couple awards I want to ask you about.

Rhonda: Oh, okay.

Ren: And I got the titles here. So the Virginia Tech Division of Student Affairs

Heroine Award.

Rhonda: Yes.

Ren: And the Virginia Tech President's Award for Excellence. Can you talk about

receiving both of those?

Rhonda: The first one, the Division of Student Affairs Heroine Award, was a

total surprise. And I'll never forget that day because my daughter was--I think

April was a senior in high school, 00:48:00 maybe.

And we had gotten up that morning, and we had the biggest fight over something,

and I yelled at her. I mean, it was just awful. And she went on to school and I

went on to work. And we did this every year. So, you know, we did it every year.

So we all go over to Owens or wherever it was at, and all of a sudden my family

shows up. It was Philip, and my dad, and my brother. And really the only person

who wasn't there was my son [Jermaine], and I think they felt like he couldn't

keep a secret. But it was really an honor to do that because they kind of...it

was kind of an award to single out people who they felt had made a contribution

to the division.

So it was kind of cool. And the efforts that they took to get my family 00:49:00 there.

And I shared it with...there's also a hero, and the hero was Ronald Wheeler, who

had been my boss at one time. So that was kind of cool for that to happen.

The President's Award for Excellence, this is the persistence that Ed had. It

took him a couple of years to get that for me because you had to be nominated.

And I'd been nominated twice, I think, before I finally got it. And of course

the best thing about that is that it's money. It's a monetary award.

But once again it's always good to know that people think you've made a

contribution to the university that it's worth being recognized for. And once

again I was able to have Philip and Jermaine and my niece and nephew. April, of

course, lives in Georgia now so she wasn't there for that. But yeah, that was

kind of cool.

Ren: That's awesome. 00:50:00So I guess kind of a question I can ask to the both of you,

and whoever wants to take this. What are some of your favorite memories or

experiences at Virginia Tech?

Phil: Go ahead.

Rhonda: Well, my favorite experience at Virginia Tech, it's all about him. And I

don't know if it's his favorite or not, but Philip was inducted into the

Virginia Tech Sports Hall of Fame in 2011. And that, to me, was the ultimate

experience. It took a while for that to happen. And our daughter--Jermaine not

so much, but April, a really good friend of ours, Billy Hardee, was inducted in

2008, and very much deserved.

And when Billy got in the first question April had was, 00:51:00why is Dad not getting

in? I don't understand. Why is he not getting in? And we have a really good

friend who's--well, he's a really good friend of Philip's--who is local, who

grew up in Christiansburg, who really, really pushed to get Philip into the Hall

of Fame. And the day the letter came, we had friends over playing cards.

And the letter was laying on the island, and I picked it up. It hadn't been

opened. And I saw Virginia Tech Athletics. And I was like, Philip, you didn't

open the--he didn't even open it. And I thought, well, I'm just going to see

what this is. And when I opened that letter, I mean, the neighbors probably

heard me scream. But to me that whole experience that night, oh, goodness.

First of all, his entire family came. And I'm talking this house was packed 00:52:00 with

30, 40 people. I mean, his family came from Richmond, New Jersey. It was just a

really, really good time for family. And probably one of the proudest moments

that I had to be able to be with him during that time. It was just... The kids,

April was so excited, because my daughter is very competitive.

Both our kids were good athletes, and April very competitive, so she was through

the roof. She was so happy at last he got in. So for me it made everything that

happened, that I've been through here at Tech, that was probably one of the best

moments of my life, was when he got into the Hall of Fame.

Ren: How did you feel?

Phil: Yeah, that's true because we had our grandkids, and they was...remember

[Holden] and [Jaden]?

Rhonda: Mm-hmm.

Phil: 00:53:00[unintelligible] 00:53:03. And it was just fun to have everybody in. And

we did cookouts and everything, so... You know, we had everybody, so that was good.

Ren: You're both incredibly humble about your careers and your time at Virginia

Tech, which spans many, many years. So kind of in that time period, we're

looking at a lot of change, and a lot of things were changing. As the first

African American quarterback at Virginia Tech, the first African American

secretary at Virginia Tech, and for you guys to be together. I guess when were

you all married?

Rhonda: 1978.

Ren: Okay, so a few years after. 'Cause after college, 00:54:00you were drafted, correct?

Phil: Yeah, I was drafted in the 8th round--

Rhonda: 7th.

Phil: 7th round, St. Louis.

Ren: So when did you all...how did it come back to Virginia Tech? How did all

that kind of play out?

Rhonda: I never left.

Ren: You never left?

Rhonda: No.

Phil: No. So, I mean, I went for the, you know, I guess the trials or whatever,

and I think I got hurt. I pulled a hamstring. And like I said, when you come

from a small school, 'cause Tech was small back in them days, you come from a

small school and you're not a real name, it's difficult.

Ren: It's hard.

Phil: Especially if you're hurt. And you got everybody 100%. You're...it

don't...it didn't work out. So after that I think I left there and...

Rhonda: The Jets.

Phil: Then I got picked up with the 00:55:00Jets, and reoccurring hamstring, so I sat

out that year. And then the next year I had a trial at Canada, went to Canada

and played. I played there for a while and messed up my ankle. Just nagging,

just nothing serious. Just enough to keep me from 100%. And, you know, back

then, you know, when you play Canada ball it's like if you're American, you got

to play. That's just, that's the rule.

And when I was...right before the season started, you know, usually they'll just

send you a letter and say, well, thank you, but you didn't make the team. So all

sitting there waiting. You know, we had [rookies]. I had a couple people from

Tech there with me, and then we'd have a thing in the mail. Other thing you

called. No, they called, had a call, and he says, Rogers, the coach wants to see you.

So I said well, 00:56:00this is strange. Usually they just say sorry, but, you know,

give me a plane ticket. So we come in, and he said Phil, said you did real good.

Said we liked what you did. You did real good. But the only problem is that

instead of going with another American in the offense, we're going to go with an

American in the defense. I said oh. He said but we want to keep you around, put

you on like your squad, traveling squad. I said oh, well, I mean, you know, long

as I get paid. So that worked out.

And then after...I think I played with--[Terry Metcalf] was the running back. He

got hurt. He had turf toe. So when he got hurt, he said, well, you come in. He

said, well, you gonna play. So that's how, you know, that happened. Then after

Terry got well I was back in the thing again, back in the [after burner]. But it

was...I learned a lot, I enjoyed it a lot, and I got to meet a lot of people. 00:57:00When I was at the Jets camp I met Joe Namath. And I can honestly say he was one

of the coolest persons I've been around, and he was down to earth. He wasn't,

you know. And like I said, and then sports, you know, sports teaches. You learn

a lot playing sports, you know. You meet a lot of people and you get to see how

people react, this and that. So, you know, I always say when you go in, it's

just like any job, when you go in you learn more by listening than running your

mouth. You know, you just sit there and listen to what people says that's been

there and done that. I've learned a lot that way.

Ren: How long did you stay in Canada for?

Phil: Not long enough.

Ren: Yeah?

Phil: Like I said, I got out of every game with my ankle, and then that's

when...was it April or Jermaine was born?

Rhonda: April.

Phil: April was born, so you had to take 00:58:00care of business, you know. When you're

hurt, you're hurt, and you can't play. And [unintelligible] 00:58:06. Like I

say, you'll be there practicing and you'll see people come in. You see three

people come in, you figure three people gonna be leaving. So if you can't go

100%, you know, it's a money [racket] there. And I've learned it ain't always

the best person. You know, you look at somebody and say man, that dude right

there, he is unreal. Next week he gone. You see this dude over here? He ain't

done nothing since he been there, but he's still there.

Ren: But he's still there? Yeah.

Phil: It's, you know, it's amazing what goes on. It's politics. It's politics

and everything.

Ren: Oh, yeah.

Phil: But like I said, it's...sometimes it's being at the right place at the

right time.

Ren: Right. I just have to ask, do you still feel the pains of playing football

for as many years as you did?

Phil: My 00:59:00ankle bothers me at times, and knee, but I think I got lucky. I didn't

get any serious injuries.

Ren: Compared to what I think some of the guys have today, right?

Phil: Yes.

Ren: Yeah, yeah.

Phil: Mm-hmm.

Ren: So both here at kind of an interesting time, both in some local history and

national history. Were there some difficult experiences, not really just in the

'70s, but throughout the years that either one of you can kind of feel

comfortable commenting on?

Phil: Well, like I said, in both our cases we was...when you're a athlete you

get more. I mean, you're recognized, so it's not as bad. You don't feel on the

outside 'cause everybody thinks they've got a connection to you or whatever.

I've never...never come across a lot of hostility or anything like that, so I

didn't have to really deal with racism 01:00:00and all that stuff.

And see when I went to school, like I said, after we integrated, and in my high

school when I graduated out of what, seven, eight hundred students, we had only

maybe 15 blacks, so...

Ren: So even as the school's first black quarterback you felt like you were a

little isolated?

Phil: I wasn't the first black quarterback. I was the first one to start. And

like I said, see, when I was a senior is when I started as a quarterback.

Ren: Okay, started quarterback, okay.

Phil: Yeah.

Ren: So even at that position you didn't...even at that time you didn't feel

like you dealt with any...?

Phil: Well, I didn't. I'm sure they did in the stands, 'cause I'm sure...'cause

I've been in the stands before when other people play. I can hear people...I

mean, even if it's like you got to be perfect at every time, which you're not.

It's football. But I can imagine what a lot of people said or thought when we

didn't do this, or I didn't do this, or I made the bad play.

I mean, I can imagine what goes on 'cause 01:01:00I've been there with other

quarterbacks in the stands, and it's...you know, it's hard on your family,

especially if you're around listening to all that. But look, I didn't have to

listen to it 'cause I was playing.

Ren: Right.

Rhonda: I think the worst...the most discriminated I was when I came to Tech

didn't have anything to do with my race, it had to do with my position.

Secretaries were looked at as second class citizens. And in the Division of

Student Affairs it was clear, it was made clear that that division was there. We

had separate social gatherings at first. I mean, it took years. It took years

for that to change. And that's the discrimination that I felt, was because of

the profession that I chose. 01:02:00I was treated like less than. Over the years that's changed dramatically. First

of all, secretary is not even used anymore. That word is minimally used. And of

course the role has changed dramatically as well. But that was probably the

biggest issue that I had. I can remember there used to be memos and it would

always say to professional...the memo would be to professional and support

staff, and that used to annoy me so bad. And that was the one hurdle Ed and I

had to get over, was you have to stop sending that out saying that. Because this

is the profession I chose, so it's my profession. So that's really the only...

And then one other thing, which I don't even know if I should say this, or this 01:03:00should be in there.

Ren: We can fix it.

Rhonda: But the Vice President of Student Affairs at the time that I came to,

that we came down here, there was no such thing as sexual harassment. And this

man would like--and we were young. You know, we'd just gotten out of school. We

were all young. And he would come up behind you, and he would have his hands on

your shoulders, and it would be kind of a [pea] 01:03:25. But that's how far

we've come as well, and yet that happened.

But once again, we were scared. What were we gonna say? We needed the job. We

weren't gonna... And plus we were afraid of it 'cause we were young and we

thought he's a good boss, so we didn't say anything about it. But really, being

discriminated against because of the profession I chose was probably one of the

most difficult things for me to deal with.

But things have gone far beyond that now. It's 01:04:00so different now. So that stigma

has been lifted, for the most part. But yeah. Racial, you know, I grew up in

Wytheville, where, when I got into high school, it's kind of sort of like Phil,

except it sounds like there were more of them in Gate City than there was in

Wytheville. There were three black kids in my graduating class, so all of my

friends were white, for the most part. They were.

So coming to Virginia Tech, to a place that was predominantly white, it

didn't...that didn't phase me because I've always been the only one in the room,

so I was used to that. So I didn't think a lot about it. And the majority of my

friends, because my friends were the people I worked with, so that's the world I

lived in. And I was not treated poorly by them.

So yeah, it was more because of what I did, 01:05:00my job, than it was my race. And I

think the fact that I...the way I grew up, with being in the minority and being

used to it, it didn't phase me like it would phase someone black coming from

northern Virginia or coming from the Tidewater area, where they're used to being

around a lot of black people. That's something I was used to. But it was the

whole secretary thing that...well, you can't have lunch with them

because...because I don't know why. Just because.

Ren: Because both of you just have such a long history in this area and at

Virginia Tech, a lot of people will associate national events with...it's like

one of those things you knew where you were when this happened. So when you were

both here, we were in Vietnam and things, and then just like thinking throughout

history, were there anything in national 01:06:00news, politics, that was played out

locally that either one of you can remember?

Rhonda: Well, needless to say, for me it's April 16th. Yeah. And 2017, with the

President of the United States in... But yeah. I think the Vietnam War was

ending when I came out, as I was coming out of high school, so by the time I got

to Blacksburg, that was kind of... And to be honest with you, I was so engrossed

in what I was doing that I didn't...I mean, I knew it was going on, but I didn't

have any relatives that were at war. I knew there was protests and stuff going

on, but when it doesn't directly affect you, sometimes you 01:07:00just blot it out.

So that's kind of how that was. But as far as anything else politically or

whatever, I can't think of anything other than April 16th, which...or September

2011, when the Twin Towers and all that stuff happened. Those, I think, are two

big historical things I think that happened in the time that I've been here. And

to go back to the whole race relations thing, though, being where I work now has

heightened my awareness that things aren't much better than they used to be at

all, because I work with kids who deal with it every day.

And that's how, when you silo yourself in certain areas at the 01:08:00university, you

don't know...you're kind of...it's tunnel vision. You only see what's right in

front of you. And before I came to where I'm at now, you could have never told

me some of the stuff that goes on on campus every day, whether you be gay,

whether you be black, whether you be Asian, whether you be Muslim, whatever.

Those students deal with that stuff every day, and a lot of people don't know that.

Ren: In your position now, do you feel like...it's kind of...are you able to

comment and talk to these students and kind of give them...because both as a

black woman in a predominantly white institution, are you able to kind of give

them--I don't want to say advice, because it's more than advice--do you feel

that that's kind of your role, sort of?

Rhonda: Kinda, sorta, but you have to be 01:09:00very careful. I have to be very careful

to not say... When you've lived through segregation like I did, where you

couldn't sit...you had to sit in the balcony of the movie theatre with the rats,

and you couldn't eat in the Greyhound Bus station, and there was a colored

section here, and you went through all that, I try not to take that to give

advice, because I don't want to minimize whatever the student's dealing with.

Sometimes I have noticed when that happens one of the best things sometimes that

you can do is just...I think it's like what Philip said earlier about you just

listen. Just don't...just let them.

And I know it's a touchy thing to do. But 01:10:00sometimes they just want to hug

somebody. I mean, it's something as simple as that. You know, I will never say I

know how you feel because your pain is not my pain. So you have to be very

careful how you navigate that. But that's why I said being where I'm at, it's

like being in a place where you can really affect somebody's life for the good,

even if you just listen to them. There are kids who come in and something will

have happened, and they will have called home, and that parent may say I don't

know why that upsets you so much. And they just need somebody that can

understand why it upsets them so much, you know, that kind of thing. So that's

why it's such a good place to be.

Ren: I know you kept your head down and played, literally head down and played

football and was really focused on athletics, 01:11:00but during your four years of

undergraduate education and then playing sports, kind of a similar kind of

question. Was there some national events that you can kind of remember or that

you maybe took part in anything that went on?

Phil: No, I really didn't. I was...actually, I was a loner back then. You know,

I didn't hang out much. I was always to myself. I mean, I know a lot of events

happened around, but... That affects you, but, I mean, you know, you got your

own opinion what's...but... And I usually keep it to myself.

Ren: We probably might need some more of that in our national... [Laughs.]

Rhonda: [Laughs.]

Phil: You know, sometimes the less said the better.

Ren: Yeah, that's true. Very true. So let me kind of just ask this 01:12:00 broad

question to the both of you.

And I guess I'll start with you. If someone simply says the words Virginia Tech,

what's the first thing you think of?

Phil: Of the school, and how far they've come, you know. Tech's on the map now.

When we first started, or when I first come here, I think they had maybe three

blacks, four--four at the most. My class in '72 we had at least 18. So I see the

difference when...when our class come, we started in '72. And to me and, you

know, it's... And it's growing. Tech's growing every day to, like I said, Tech

was... It was just a means of... I mean, I didn't appreciate what I had back then.

Ren: Right.

Phil: I just went through the motions, [yes] I did. And 01:13:00like I said, I had

no...even when I was a senior, college was the last place on my mind. When

someone said are you going to college? I said, well, I don't know. And then, you

know, when I got a senior, and, you know, I got better at playing or whatever,

known, whatever, and then I think that's when I really seriously thought about

going to college, 'cause it didn't cross my mind.

Ren: Yeah. So were you able to...did you graduate?

Phil: No, I didn't graduate.

Ren: You didn't graduate because you were...?

Phil: Yeah. Like I said, after I got drafted, then I went there, and then I went

there, and then I went there. Then I got married and responsibility comes, and I

got a job. And like I said, I've been at [unintelligible] 01:13:47 going on 38,

37--37 years.

Ren: Okay.

Phil: So, you know, I have no regrets.

Ren: No regrets. Do you look back on your memories at Virginia Tech pretty fondly?

Phil: Most of the time. Like I said, I didn't have any 01:14:00bad experiences at Tech,

I don't think.

Ren: Yeah. I like him. [Laughs.] To you, if someone says Virginia Tech, what's

the first thing you think of?

Rhonda: My livelihood.

Phil: Second home.

Rhonda: My livelihood, first and foremost. And then go Hokies. You become part

of Hokie nation. You're a part of the Hokie nation. Yeah, yeah. Just...yeah.

Ren: So there's this Gallup poll that was conducted a few years ago, and I'm

sure you've heard about and maybe seen it on the news. But basically the summary

of the poll is that Virginia Tech alumni, out of all universities, public

colleges and universities, have the most connected alumni to their university.

So, you know, 01:15:00what may be some reasons for that? As someone who, you all have

been such [unintelligible] 01:15:07?

Phil: It's closeness, I don't know.

Ren: Closeness? Yeah.

Rhonda: I think...I think...I think it was always there, to some degree, but I

think after April 16th everything got heightened.

Ren: Can I ask you about April 16th? Is that okay?

Rhonda: Yeah.

Ren: It's one of those where were you and what was your memories?

Rhonda: I was...I had just come into the office. It was about 7:30. And

typically my boss Ed was always there when I got there, and he wasn't. And our

executive housekeeper, Margie Lawrence, as I'm coming in, she's coming out, and

she's crying. And I was like Margie, what's wrong?

And she said there's been a shooting in AJ. And I was like, what? And she said

yeah, some students have gotten 01:16:00shot in AJ. And then I was like, well, where's

Ed? 'Cause he wasn't there. And I didn't know where he was.

And she, you know, and so probably for 45 minutes or so, until the second attack

started, did I really know what happened, because as soon as that happened, then

Margie came back and she said, oh my god, somebody's across the drill field

shooting people in--and she said the wrong building. But I was like, what do you

mean? And then it's almost like after that I knew Ed had gone up to check on the

students, one of them of which was one of our resident, head resident advisors,

which brought it even closer to home.

And so I knew that's where he was. He got stuck up there because once it started

again, they couldn't 01:17:00move from where they were at. And so after that it was just

kind of...it's all kind of jumbled up, because once it started, the phones

started ringing, and sirens. What I remember the most from that day are sirens.

They just went on forever and ever, and ever and ever and ever. And, you know,

and the phone just kept ringing. It just kept ringing.

And it was report--it was amazing how quickly reporters started calling. And

they would just, and they were calling everywhere. They just wanted to talk with

somebody that knew what was going on. And so for me a lot of that day is a total

blur just because everything started happening so fast. Fortunately,

before--because it got to a point where calls couldn't get through on cell

phones or anything. But luckily anybody that was close to me got to me soon

enough to know that I was okay. 01:18:00But it's just a blur. I never saw Ed that day at all. He never got back to the

office. My son, who at the time was working at Owens in the Hokie Grill, was

trying to come to work. And he calls me and he's like Mom, they won't let me on

campus. I said, Jermaine, go back home. But Mom, I've got to go to work, I'll

get in trouble. I said, son, go back home. So it was just a lot going on. People

were upset, people were crying. Folks just didn't know what to do. People were

saying stay out of the windows, but yet everybody was in the windows, and it was

just, it was chaotic. It was just really, really chaotic. Now the weird part

about that is I had a certain...I was just kind of present. I don't recall being

upset. I wasn't crying. I was just answering the phone and--

Ren: Doing your job, right?

Rhonda: Yeah, trying to 01:19:00direct people to...you need to talk to University

Relations. We don't know anything. We can't answer any questions. It went that

way all day until finally, I think at about 3:30 or so they were finally letting

people leave campus, 'cause for a while you couldn't come on and you couldn't go off.

So for me that whole day was a blur. And then the rest of the week was just

trying to provide support. There was a call station set up because the calls

were coming in so heavily they had to set up a call station. So people were just

volunteering to help where they could. That Friday--I think it was that

Friday--we had the big gathering the next day in the Coliseum. So we signed up

to help with that.

You know, everybody just pitched in and tried to do what they could do. 01:20:00By the

end of the week I left town, Me and my mother-and-law left to go to Georgia. And

I don't know why we did that. I don't know where he was at. But that's what we

ended up doing. And what I remember most about that was I had the flags on my

car, and almost everywhere I stopped people would ask questions. And that went

on for a long time after April 16th. We went down there--and I don't know if you

remember this--we went out to eat one night and we had on VT sweatshirts, and

the restaurant comped some of our meal.

Ren: Wow.

Rhonda: I mean, just you folks have been through a lot, so we're going to help

you out. But yeah, that whole day was...it's a blur. I don't remember a lot

about that day except the sirens and the phones ringing.

Ren: We're coming up on the ten year anniversary, right, so we have a collection

of 01:21:00April 16th stories from some of these that we're going to do on our website.

I think the reason we got to that is 'cause we were--I think what you're kind of

leading to is why do alumni become so engaged. And I think that day really, I

think we showed the world and the United States just the sense of community in

how we responded to it.

And when I interviewed Nikki--call her first name, it's so strange--we kind of

talked about this. It was like we don't want this to define who we are. And, I

mean, the two of you obviously know Virginia Tech than most. So let's kind of

move on to a brighter topic, maybe. When you look around campus today, or what's

going on in our current environment around campus, 01:22:00what encourages you? And then

on kind of the flip side of that, what concerns you?

Rhonda: I think what encourages me is the passion that I see that our students

have to reach out, to speak up and speak out now. They don't hold back anymore.

I think we have got a more...what's the word I want to use? The students are

playing more of an activist role. There are more little protests and rallies

going on. Because they're not longer going to sit back and let things happen.

And that's encouraging to know. And to really see, I think, the community that

is felt at Tech. It's real, it really is. It's not fake, it's not phony. And

that's hard to express to people who don't 01:23:00know anything about Virginia Tech.

So that's encouraging. What discourages me is, because of where I work, some of

the stuff that I know is happening that one would think shouldn't be happening

at a university where people are supposed to be educated, smart, intelligent and

should know better. That discourages me. Yeah.

Ren: Anything?

Phil: Well, it's about the same. It just amazes me how big and how much it's

grown. I mean, I don't ever get on this side of town. I don't, you know, like I

said, I knew it, but now it's different. I get lost now because I don't stay on

that side of town anymore. Everything's changed so much and grown up so much.

Ren: So you've been 01:24:00here through a lot of change, different administrations. So

all these changes that have happened, kind of like what changes would you like

to see for the future, both at Virginia Tech and maybe just Blacksburg in

general as well? And this is kind of a pretty broad question, so...

Rhonda: You know, I don't know how to answer it because at our age...

Phil: This day and time everything is just evolving [quickly].

Rhonda: It's let you all do this.

Ren: Right. [Laughs.]

Rhonda: Sometimes I think Tech needs to slow down a little bit because I think

we're outgrowing ourselves quicker than we can, you know. We don't have enough

space. And they want to bring more students, but we're overcrowded. So sometimes

I think we need to just take a break and step back and maybe let things level

out a little bit. 01:25:00You know, when I look around the campus and where Torgersen Hall is, I think

about how that used to be. And when April was little, you know the trash bags

with the jack-o-lantern face on them, there used to be that hill right there

where all those trees were. That's where I would get the leaves--because we

lived in an apartment--that's where I would get the leaves to fill my trash bag.

And it's like those are all gone.

You know, there was...a lot of beauty has been cut down to build. On the other

hand, it's a magnificent look--it's a...I don't think there's a campus in this

country that is as beautiful as Virginia Tech. And I'm biased 'cause I've been

here for a hundred years, but I just always look--some days you go out and you

just look at the beauty of that campus, especially when the sun's shining. And

if the sun's not shining, it's pretty gray. 01:26:00But if the sun is shining, it's just an amazing campus to look at. And I

always...you know, we always see the groups of folks who come to visit and to

tour, and it's getting to be that time of the year where the high schools are on

spring break, so there's all kinds of tours going on. And I always wonder what

do those people think when they look at this campus. It would scare me to death,

it's so big. But it's also so beautiful. But I also think they also get a taste

of that community feeling while they walk around the campus because I think you

can feel it all the time, that there's that sense all the time.

Ren: I'm wrapping up here, so I've just got a couple more questions, let you

guys enjoy the rest of your evening. What would you like people to know 01:27:00 about

you and also...so we'll start there.

Phil: What would I like them to know about me?

Ren: Yeah.

Phil: That's a hard question for me because like I said, I'm very private. Are

we talking about when my days are at Tech or now?

Ren: Just either.

Phil: Well, I'm a caring person, that I'll help, you know. Just the other day

when I was at the food line, when I went in I seen these two people out there

with the hood up. It was two women. So when I come back out, they were still

there. So I said you need any help? She said yes, my mom's car won't start. And

she had this big truck. She said I can't get the hood up.

So we pulled around, and so we helped them. 01:28:00And then, you know, after we got

through she says--'cause she was on the phone, and I don't know who she was

calling. She said we can't get it up, we can't do this, so here's--oh,

somebody's here, he's going to help us. So I did, and she said, well, thank you.

And she introduced herself and shook my hand. She said thank you. I said okay,

any time, and walked out. I mean, it was nice to help people, you know. And

another time I was at the...what's that? At the...what's that place out there?

The mail, you know, at the mail.

Rhonda: Post office?

Phil: Post office. This woman was out there and she had a flat tire, and they

were just going around in circles. And I said you need any help? She said yes, I

don't know how to change a tire. So I helped them change the tire, you know. I

mean, it's something to do to help somebody. So, I mean, I hope somebody will

know that I'm caring and that I care about not only 01:29:00myself, other people.

Or what they think. I mean, you know, you can't go around worrying about what

everybody thinks. But, you know, if you see somebody needs help, I think I would

help them.

Rhonda: And that's really true about him. He would give you the coat off his

back if he had to. Me, I really don't know. I guess kind of similar, although

he's probably a little more caring about people than I am. And this is

[Kimberly]. This is what we go back and forth about all the time because she

wants to tell the world that we are the first black whatever. We're like

Kimberly, no, we don't need to tell everybody that. But I guess really kind of similar.

What I would want people to know about me is that 01:30:00I love my family, that I'm a

loyal person, and that I love God. And that those things are what's most

important to me, is my church, my family, and the loyalty that I have to my job,

to my boss. Yeah, just to know that, that don't mess with my boss. We may not

always agree, but that loyalty is there. Don't mess with talking down about the

Division of Student Affairs. Don't talk down about Virginia Tech, because my

loyalty is there. And yeah. And just that my family comes first, 01:31:00after God.

Ren: Amen. I guess one of the last questions I have here is just what does

Virginia Tech mean to--and we've all kind of talked a little bit about it--but

what does it mean to the both of you? I mean, you've made your home here, you've

raised children here, you've worked there for 40 plus years.

Phil: It's what's home, it's a second home.

Ren: Yeah.

Phil: And it's family, and friends, and that's where we all started.

Rhonda: And it's brought...

Phil: Get to meet a lot of people.

Rhonda: A lot of the joy in our lives has come from his affiliation with the

university because with what he's done here, it's given us opportunities to do

things that we probably never would have done. 01:32:00And he's right, it's home. You know, now when people say where you're from, I

had to get corrected about this the other day. When somebody said where you're

from, I said Blacksburg, and it was like oh no, I'm from Wytheville. But I've

been in Blacksburg a whole lot longer than I was in Wytheville, so it's home.

And like I said, Virginia Tech has been a part of our livelihood, so we have

what we have because of where I work.

Ren: Well, I just want to say I know this was different for the both of you, but

thank you both so much for inviting me into your home and answering my

questions. And you're both incredibly humble and private individuals, but I

think it probably goes without saying the contributions, whether you think you

have any or not, to this 01:33:00 university.

So thank you so much for doing this, for agreeing to be interviewed, and for

talking with us and sharing your story, so we really appreciate it. So Mr.

Rogers, thank you very...thank you so much.

Rhonda: Thank you.

Ren: Thanks.