VT Stories Oral History with Matthew Winston, Sr., February 9, 2018 (Ms2016-015)

Ren Harman: When you want to take a break feel free. It's a really laid-back

conversation. You will forget all this is here hopefully in about 10 minutes.

I'll just say good morning. This is Ren Harman, the Project Director for VT

Stories. Today is February 9, 2018 at about 10:15 AM. We are in Virginia Beach,

Virginia with two very special guests with us today. This is the only time that

I will prompt you, but if you can just state in a complete sentence my name is,

when you were born, and where you were born.

Matt Winston Sr.: My name is Matthew Maurice Winston. I was born in Norfolk,

Virginia in 1938.

Ren: Okay. Thank you very much. What years did you attend Virginia Tech?

Matt Sr.: I attended Virginia Tech from 1955 to 1959.

Ren: What was your major?

Matt Sr.: Mechanical engineering.

Ren: Thank you very much. The same question to you.

Matt Winston Jr: 00:01:00My name is Matthew Maurice Winston, Jr. I was also born in

Norfolk, Virginia in 1968.

Ren: What years did you attend Virginia Tech?

Matt Jr.: I attended Virginia Tech as a student from 1986 to 1990.

Ren: And your major?

Matt Jr.: I was a marketing management major.

Ren: Back to you. Can you tell me a little bit about your early life and growing up?

Matt Sr.: My early life growing up was very interesting. I grew up during the

Second World War. Life was much different from what it is now; partly because of

the War and much more because society was very different from what it is now in

a lot of ways, and yet the same in a lot of 00:02:00ways. I lived in a neighborhood

where everybody looked out for each other. There was no crime to speak of at

all. No fear and no worry about your kids' safety. Somebody was looking out for

them. All of the adults assumed responsibility for all of the kids. I think

about it a lot. As a matter of fact I picked out one of my favorite spots in my

old neighborhood and told my kids where I'd like to have my ashes scattered when

I'm deceased.

Ren: Wow. Were you an only child?

Matt Sr.: No, I have 00:03:00two older sisters.

Ren: So you were the baby.

Matt Sr.: I was the baby, which they never let me forget. They claimed that my

mother preferred me and pampered me, did everything better for me than she did

for them. It wasn't true, but they claimed it anyway..

Ren: I'm the youngest of five and I'm the baby boy too. I have an older brother

and three older sisters, so I know a little bit about that. Can you talk a

little bit about your mom and dad, what did they do? What were they like? Their names.

Matt Sr.: Well, first of all, my mom and dad were separated when I was very

young. My father moved to New York, and so my mother raised the three of us.

They had high school educations. That's the highest education most people had at

that 00:04:00time; and where we lived, that was more than most of the other people had.

For that reason, my mom was the unofficial scribe on our street. Whenever the

older folks needed something read or written, she was called upon.

Ren: Right.

Matt Sr.: But I never heard either of my parents say anything negative, not even

close to negative about the other one, so I don't know why they weren't

together. I have never known. They were both great people. They made me feel

loved my whole life and I appreciated that. Although they couldn't give us many

material things, it didn't bother me because most people around me had meager

material 00:05:00assets. We just had less; and those who had more willingly shared. But,

I had lots of friends who, very poor or not so poor, learned to cope and love

each other from an early age.

It is important to understand that during those years, everyone suffered some

level of deprivation because of the war and its demand for resources. Black

citizens suffered considerably more because of rigidly enforced racial

segregation. Those circumstances had a profound impact on my lifelong views of

American society.

Our neighborhood was one of two neighborhoods (Berkley and Campostella) on the

south side of Norfolk. I lived in Berkley. The population there was made up of

three ethnic groups: White gentiles, Jews, and Blacks. The 00:06:00Jewish citizens lived

in the most compact and homogeneous community. The Gentiles and blacks were

scattered in groups of various sizes throughout the remainder of the landscape

with no distinct boundaries between them. The result was that some of each

ethnic group had close neighbors of one or both of the other groups. I can't

recall ever knowing or hearing of any friction between them. Of course there

were occasional disagreements between individuals but no ethnic or racial

friction. They were good neighbors; even good friends in some cases; and during

the war especially, they all looked out for each other. I was surprised as I

grew older to find that this kind of cross-cultural coexistence was not the norm

all over the country.

Ren: Did you play with a lot of the neighborhood kids?

Matt Sr.: I did. There were lots of kids but only four basketball courts in our

neighborhood----two at the white elementary school and two at the black school;

so basketball was not a popular sport among those who did not live close to the

schools. There were, however, many vacant lots; and most of us played baseball

in spring and summer and football in fall and winter. Not always but many times,

these play groups included (totally unsupervised) kids of different races.

Believe it or not, when I was a young kid (up until my early teens), my very

best friend was a white boy whose parents owned the "mom-and-pop" grocery store

next door to us. 00:07:00They lived above the store. Another older white boy (late

teens-early twenties) who lived across the street assumed the role of play

organizer and coach for all of the younger kids. He spent many afternoons and

weekends teaching us the skills and rules of baseball and football together with

concepts of sportsmanship. At some point, he was drafted into the army, and we

never saw him again.

Ren: Growing up as a child during the war was there ever times where you were

scared or fearful of what was kind of happening?

Matt Sr.: No. I was a toddler when the U.S. entered the war and I had no

appreciation for the severity of the situation. The adults didn't talk about it

much in the presence of the kids. As kids, we did things to support the war

effort, but we really didn't understand how it worked; nor did we 00:08:00care. The war

was far, far away. It was not something that kids gave much thought to. It was

an inconvenience at times (for kids) if an "air raid" drill interrupted any

outdoor play on summer nights Those drills ,which were always after dark,

required everybody to go indoors, all indoor and outdoor lights turned off and

maximum quiet maintained. I regarded all this as normal. I thought that there

always was war and there always would be war and all it entailed. But there was

never any immediate fear related to the war..

.

Ren: What did your mother and father do for work at that time?

Matt Sr.: My mom was a domestic. My father was a musician, a lifelong musician

and he was good at it. I'm certain that he, like the rest of his family, moved

up north because he couldn't make a living here doing what he loved and what

allowed him to use his most marketable skill--

Ren: What was his instrument?

Matt Sr.: Piano.

Ren: 00:09:00That's wonderful. Do you think that growing up in that type of community

with different races, religions, different points of view even at a time when

segregation was obviously still legal and rampant in this country, do you think

it kind of shaped the way you saw the world a little bit?

Matt Sr.: Oh certainly it did. I told you about this kid who lived next door,

whose parents owned a grocery store.. We were just two kids who were good

friends. Many times we questioned things. Why don't we go to the same 00:10:00school or

why can't we go to the movies together? Whenever we asked these questions of our

respective parents, we got the same answer---"Well, that's just the way it is."

My friend and I were left to ponder who made the rules and why. Certainly not

anybody in our neighborhood..

Ren: Right.

Matt Sr.: I was fairly into my teens before I really knew what segregation was

really like where it was more rigidly practiced. But I did know with certainty

that all white people did not embrace it. 00:11:00I also knew that, for all the

privilege that it offered to them, it sometimes worked against their own desires

to do what they believed was right. My mom taught us that the best and simplest

way for all of us to live would be to ignore the group identities and to judge

each person individually. I tried to do just that always.

Ren: That's a good life lesson to have. How important was education in your

home? How were you as a student growing up?

Matt Sr.: I don't want to brag, but I was an excellent student. [Laughs] Well

actually all three of us were. My mom was very tough on us about education. And

although we didn't have a lot of 00:12:00things we always had stuff to read and we were

encouraged to read.

My older sister was kind of a math whiz. I don't know where she got that. All of

us were good students There was a time when the three of us were in elementary

school and were among the students selected to initiate a student newspaper.

There were many other students available to fill the required jobs. When the

dust cleared, however, my older sister was the editor-in-chief, my other sister

was the associate editor, and I was the circulation manager. I never really

thought that I was much better as a student than many of my classmates until the

time came to graduate from high school and I was named valedictorian.

Ren: Where did you attend high school?

Matt Sr.: Booker T. 00:13:00Washington High School in Norfolk.

Ren: And you were the valedictorian?

Matt Sr.: In 1955.

Ren: What were some of your favorite subjects?

Matt Sr.: Oh wow. I liked them all as a matter of fact, but I think my favorites

were probably foreign languages and physics.

Ren: How did Virginia Tech come into the picture?

Matt Sr.: We had a physics teacher at my high 00:14:00school who was not satisfied with

the way the guidance program was operating, so he started his own independent

guidance effort. This man was extraordinary. Not only did he carry a full

teaching load; but he always prepared several students for participation in the

local and state Science 00:15:00Fairs. He owned and operated a radio repair business. He

set up equipment and provided all of the announcing at varsity athletic events.

He directed all of the lighting and stage management functions for the school

drama productions and other public displays. Along with all of that, he spent

the summers teaching technical courses at one of the colleges in the Washington,

D.C. area. With only limited exposure to a student, this gentleman, Mr. Perry,

had a knack for identifying the most likely path to his or her future success;

not only in technical pursuits, but in other fields as well. He recommended

colleges and offered possible solutions to satisfy financial needs. A little

more about that later.

Mr. Perry kept himself well informed about all things educational. Not many

people knew, but he knew that Irving Peddrew was admitted to Tech in 1953, the

year before public school segregation was ruled unconstitutional. In that

decision, he saw the potential to steer future students into engineering at a

state institution. The financial impact was huge at lowering the barrier into

that profession for low income applicants who typified the majority of students

at our school.

So, in 1954, Mr. Perry identified three of his students who he believed were

good candidates to enroll in the Tech engineering school. 00:16:00They all applied and

were accepted at Virginia Tech that year. The following year, he sent me down

the same path.

As I just mentioned, the availability of an in-state engineering school

significantly lowered the financial barrier for minority students. For me and

the three guys who preceded me, that was not enough. This same teacher found a

source of additional help.. Not very many people knew about it, but he found out

about a Foundation that used its resources to provide needed financial support

to graduates of Norfolk high schools. That's about all that I can really say

about the Foundation because it's all I know. They operated with a very low

profile. I can't recall ever reading or hearing anything about it in the media.

They did not require written applications or tests. There was a face-to-face

interview with the administrators who were white middle-aged establishment

attorneys. I often found it thought provoking when I learned that the Foundation

was not a civil rights advocacy group nor were there any ties to the minority community.

As long ago as that was, I vividly remember that part of the interview where I

was quizzed about my understanding of Communism. During that era, the greatest

concern in America was the belief that Russia was striving to export its form of

government globally. A mere hint of sympathy toward any aspect of anything

Russian could place you under investigation. Long before the interview, I had

become curious about how this all came about; and I had taken it upon myself to

learn all that I could relative to it. So, my response to the interviewers

obviously pleased them. They looked at each other, smiled, and ended the

interview. A few days later, I received a letter which said, in effect, "let us

know how much you need".

Ren: Can you describe or remember your first memory of Virginia 00:17:00 Tech?

Matt Sr.: The whole experience was something of a shock. I had been through

mountainous places before, but only with brief stops, if any. I was impressed.

Blacksburg wasn't nearly as developed as it is now, nor was the Tech campus.

Tech's student body numbered only about 5,000. About half of them were GIs back

from the Korean War. So roughly speaking, the student body contained mature

males (civilians), about an equal number of late teenage and young adult males

(cadets), and about a hundred females.

Ren: 00:18:00We've talked to a lot of alumni kind of about that relationship between

returning vets and current students. What do you remember kind of about that

relationship between the two student bodies?

Matt Sr.: Honestly, there is very little that I could know about that since had

no opportunity to observe much of anything outside of the classroom What stood

out to me was that, in general, the advanced 00:19:00maturity of the civilian freshman

seemed to provide them with a leg up academically compared to cadets. For those

cadets who survived the "rat year", that apparent dis- advantage was

significantly diminished. Living off campus, as I was required to, spared me

much of the distraction that on-campus corps life entailed.

Ren: Do you remember when you first saw the campus when you came to start?

Matt Sr.: That was the first time.

Ren: That was the first time. Do you remember what buildings or any images in

your mind that you can remember from that time?

Matt Sr.: Well, I was assigned to, what was then Air Force ROTC Squadron B which

was in Eggleston Hall, so I knew about Eggleston Hall, the recently-finished

Newman library, and Squires Hall. Soon, I got to know other 00:20:00places because I had

to go to other places. One was the tailor shop, because that's one of the first

places you went if you were in the Corps. You had to go get fitted for that

uniform on day one .

Ren: When you started at Virginia Tech I guess that was in 1955?

Matt Sr.: Yes.

Ren: Did you come in as an aerospace engineering major, or was that something

you kind of declared later on?

Matt Sr.: , I wasn't an aerospace engineering major. I went in as an electrical

engineering major and I thought that was what I wanted. I found out real soon

that the electrical engineering department was really really a tough place to

be, because 00:21:00they had what seemed like arbitrary limits to how many people were

going to get through the department.

It wasn't a secret. It was very well-known. The professor said at the first

class meeting, "Half of you are going to fail." Failing wasn't an option for me,

because my financial support depended on me keeping a certain grade. I said,

okay, I'm in the wrong place. [Laughs] So I switched to mechanical.

Ren: To mechanical, okay. As you mentioned, that first year of college is a

little difficult for a lot of people as it was for me, and I'm sure thousands

and millions of others. What was that first year of college like for you, just

getting adjusted to the classes and the scheduling?

Matt Sr.: It was just 00:22:00hard because it took so much time. There wasn't much time

to do anything except school stuff, and the Corps obligations took up time also.

It was about a 20-minute walk each way from where I lived to the campus, and a

typical day involved four of those walks. All I had time to focus on was getting

decent grades. I didn't really have time to think about anything else to be

honest with you.

Ren: So the first year in the Corps, the rat year as it has kind of been

commonly referred to as, I'm sure there's lots of stories from that year in

terms of maybe some pranks. What other kind of things were happening?

Matt Sr.: Well believe it or not, I really didn't experience 00:23:00as much of that as

the guys who lived on campus, because most of it happened after class or outside

of the class. But there was enough of it that I learned something that served me

well throughout my life, and that was how to take a lot of crap.

Ren: [Laughs]

Matt Sr.: Without losing it, you know?

Ren: Right. [Laughs] Oh man. So you said it was a 20-minute walk to campus?

Matt Sr.: Yeah.

Ren: Where did you live? Where was that exactly?

Matt Sr.: I lived up on East Clay Street, which is one of the streets that runs

into Main Street. The walk to campus was about 20 minutes if you walked fast

enough. That took a bit of getting used to, but it was the only 00:24:00option. Later, I

got a bicycle. That helped a lot.

Ren: Do you remember any notable professors or advisors that were influential

who advised you or mentored you during your time at Virginia Tech?

Matt Sr.: As far as being mentored I can't really put my finger on any one or

two people. But, there were faculty who were very helpful in making sure that I

got the work done, I hesitate to try to pick one or two of them out, but I never

was mistreated by anybody the way that Charlie Yates was . 00:25:00There were faculty

and staff who were aware of those among them who were not in favor of our

presence. I had one instructor who was replaced after one or two class meetings.

We (students) assumed that he was perhaps sick or had a schedule 00:26:00change. Later,

I was told by another faculty member that he went to his department head and

made it known that he didn't want to teach a class with me in it. That was

really a surprise, because during the short time that he taught the class, he

was very nice to me. 00:27:00Although I never received nor did I want any special treatment, I will be

forever grateful for the efforts of those who did whatever they could to shield

me from the biases that could have been detrimental to my success.

Ren: What was your relationship with the other students? How did they feel?

Matt Sr.: I can honestly say I never had one negative experience with anybody in

the student body. Maybe those who may have had negative feelings towards me just

chose not to interact with me at all, but most of my relationships with students

were unremarkably normal.

Ren: I don't know if this is correct based on what else I've read, but were you

the fifth African American student who was enrolled?

Matt Sr.: Yeah.

Ren: Fifth, okay. 00:28:00I want to ask you some favorite memories or experiences. I

know we've talked a little bit about some mistreatment that didn't necessarily

occur that often. Do you have some favorite memories or experiences that really

stand out in your mind?

Matt Sr.: [Laughs]

Matt Jr.: None that you're willing to say on tape, right? [Chuckles]

Matt Sr.: Most of my favorite memories of Blacksburg and of southwest Virginia,

involved off- campus activities not associated with the University.

Ren: I want to ask you a little bit about the community of Blacksburg and

Christiansburg, because when I talked to your son 00:29:00a couple of weeks ago we kind

of talked about this. What was your relationship and your experiences in the

community during this time?

Matt Sr.: Well, I will say this much. Blacksburg, Christiansburg, and all of the

nearby counties and towns had very small populations of minority people. We got

invited to all the social and civic activities that were part of those

communities long 00:30:00before any of us kids from eastern Virginia showed up. During

my time among these folks, I made lots of friends, many of whom I remember well.

I'm not certain but I suspect that a few of them remain in the area --not just

in Blacksburg and Christiansburg, but in Radford, Pulaski, Elliston, and New

River as well.

Do you happen to know a fellow named Charles Johnson who owns and operates a

barbershop and beauty salon in one of the shopping centers in Blacksburg?

Ren: Hmm.

Matt Sr.: When I first came to Blacksburg, he was in the Army; and after his

discharge, he became a barber in the college barber shop. He would come by our

living quarters on Clay St. and cut our hair since there was no other place

nearby to provide that service. 00:31:00We became good friends, and he showed me many

places that only a native would know. He was well known and knew many people

throughout the area. He introduced me to a great number of them; and after a

time, I began to feel at home. Once or twice, he came to Norfolk with me to

spend the weekend with my family.

Matt Sr.: There was another fellow who lived in the house right behind where we

lived. He and his wife often invited me to dinner. She was a great cook. Several

times, he invited me to accompany him on weekend football trips to 00:32:00 West

Virginia. On one occasion, he and Charles (the barber) invited me to join them

on a trip to Washington, D.C. to visit another Blacksburg native who was

enjoying a notable career in that 00:33:00 city.

Ren: Can you talk a little bit about your circle of friends and other students

you were in class with and things, some relationships that you developed with them?

Matt Sr.: At Tech?

Ren: 00:34:00 Yes.

Matt Sr.: I had no real circle of friends or relationships with other students.

There were people who befriended me, but it never went beyond the classroom or

chance encounters on campus or in town. After I had graduated and went to 00:35:00 work,

I ran into a lot of Hokies that I knew because they also worked at NASA. That

was always a helpful situation to me. I will expand on that if you want me to.

Ren: Yeah, we're going to get there. So during your time at Virginia Tech in the

late 1950s do you remember anything that was happening kind of in national news

or politics and kind of how that played out in Blacksburg? Was there any

historical event that you remember?

Matt Sr.: If you are referring to things related to civil rights and school

integration, there was nothing newsworthy that I recall hearing about during my

years in 00:36:00Blacksburg. As far as I remember, I never saw anything in the national

or local media related to Tech and its admission of black students. You must

remember that the so- called "civil rights revolution" was still in its infancy

in the early 1960's; and that I had graduated by then.

Ren: [Chuckles] Right.

Matt Sr.: But I was awakened to what was going on in the deep south as early as

1957. 00:37:00There was another guy from Blacksburg who had graduated from Tuskegee

Institute in Alabama where he was an outstanding athlete . He then served a few

years in the Air Force and returned to Blacksburg. As a Tuskegee alum, he had a

burning desire to attend their traditional Thanks-giving Day football game with

Alabama State College. He didn't want to go by himself, so he talked Charles

(the barber) and me into going down there with him. I was skeptical at first

because I had heard some scary stories about the deep south, but the promise of

warmer weather for a few days convinced my 19-year-old brain that it was worth

risking my life.

So we went down there; and we hadn't considered that the Rosa Parks- Martin

Luther King bus boycott was in full swing in that part of Alabama, and it was a

very tense situation at the time. 00:38:00That was my real awakening. Fortunately, my

friend was well remembered at Tuskegee and they provided us with food, lodging

and advice on dealing with the situation. For example, each night bands of

hooded klansmen would ride on horseback through the campus. I witnessed it on

our first night there. We were told that no real damage had been done nor had

anyone been harmed. The nightly forays were mainly to intimidate the University

community. Since they always came about the same time and their approach could

be heard from quite a distance, the response was to stay inside and not confront

them. Their time on campus was normally brief. Yes, the deep south was a scary

place. All of this was in 1957. The more well publicized events such as sit-ins,

fire hoses, police dogs, etc. occurred later. By then I was back at home in the

early stages of my career.

Ren: Right. I want to ask you about a story that I've read a couple of places

and I know Matt talked a little bit about it when we did his VT story was about

the ring dance. Can you recall that story?

Matt Sr.: It wasn't a big deal. First of all, I expected what happened to me

because it had happened to others before me. But even so, when it happened it

was galling to get a call from the University president and have him try to

convince me that my presence at Ring Dance could do great harm. Yes, I got the

call and I had the conversation with Dr. Newman. We agreed not to agree at the

outset because he had his point of view and I had my mine. It wasn't

contentious, it was just an honest 00:39:00conversation . For some time prior to Dr.

Newman's call, the class leaders had been encouraging me to attend; and they had

been working to make certain that nothing negative was going to happen. But the

truth was that I couldn't afford it even if I had wanted to go. So, ring Dance

was never a big deal to me. I eventually told the President that I never

intended to go. I never told him why. I'm sure he thought that he persuaded me

to do it his way.

Ren: 00:40:00So you graduated in 1959. Did you graduate in the spring semester?

Matt Sr.: I completed all of my engineering classes 00:41:00by the spring of '59. But

there was a requirement to take nine hours of non-technical courses; and I had

kind of pushed them aside to make sure that I got the main stuff done. Before I

realized it, the time had come to tackle those electives. So I spent an extra

six weeks in 1959, and finished in July. Fortunately for me, the job offer from

NASA was kept open until I was available.

Ren: How did that job opportunity become available?

Matt Sr.: I don't know how it's done now; but back then employers would send

recruiters to campuses across the country to interview prospective 00:42:00 employees.

Visits by these recruiters were advertised, and students could sign up for

interviews with those whose firms offered employment in areas of interest to

them. Typically, if the interviewer looked favorably upon the student, he would

invite the student to visit the employers facility for additional interview.

That could (but not always would) lead to a job offer. That was a good time to

be an engineer. They were in great demand by both the public and private sectors.

Just about everyone I knew received several job offers during that period. The

military vets had the best opportunities for eventual hiring because employers

did not face the risk of losing them to the military draft. In my own case, I

failed to accept a job on several occasions because the employer could not

protect me from the draft or I was not offered a job because the employer's

investment in me could be lost at any time. So for me and those like me, the

need was to choose from among prospective employers those who were involved with

military support or some other phase of national security. Lucky me----I had

offers from NASA and the Newport News Shipyard. I chose 00:43:00 NASA.

Ren: Can you talk a little bit about the coursework that you were doing? This is

the late 1950s in engineering. What kind of courses were you taking? Which ones

did you like, not like and so on?

Matt Sr.: Back then mechanical engineering consisted of a lot of courses in

thermodynamics, mechanics and materials. There were only two options where you

could choose to specialize during your junior and senior years, One of them was

design. The other one was power plants. In that era, most of the power plants in

the country were coal-fired steam power plants; so the course work addressed the

design and operation of those facilities. That wasn't very appealing to me. 00:44:00 I

chose the design option. I liked courses in kinematics, dynamics, material

properties, and design of systems and system elements.

Ren: 00:45:00 Right.

Matt Sr.: So I chose design. But going to NASA to start my job when the other

recruits were already there for six weeks before me, I was told, "Okay, the job

we had for you was filled, but you still have a job. However, for the time

being, we have to put you somewhere else until we get you better 00:46:00situated--" So

I went to work for this outfit doing helicopters research. There I met my

mentor, my real mentor. I didn't know anything about helicopters or airplanes,

but he knew lots of stuff, and he taught me. He had undergrad and graduate

degrees from the University of Kansas, and he was and Air Force veteran. We

worked together on my first three or four research projects. Whenever I needed

it, he would always find time to sit me down and teach me the academics

supporting whatever we were doing.

Ren: Right. What was his name?

Matt Sr.: His name is Robert Houston. I haven't been able to contact him in a

long time. I lost track of 00:47:00 him.

Ren: This was NASA at Langley, right?

Matt Sr.: Yes.

Ren: When you arrived there were there a lot of other Virginia Tech graduates

that you were working alongside?

Matt Sr.: Not really alongside; but there were many Tech alums working in

numerous disciplines throughout the Research Center. A fair number of them were

new hires like me, and an even greater number had been there for years. The Tech

Engineering School used to have a NASA Langley day each year day. Do they still

have that?

Matt Jr.: I'm not sure.

Matt Sr.: You remember that because I used to come up and participate.

Matt Jr.: Yes.

Matt Sr.: At that time, 00:48:00the dean of Engineering and the director of the Langley

Research Center were friends (maybe ex-classmates). The Chief Scientist at

Langley was also a Hokie who was a year ahead of me. He was also from Norfolk

and we had gotten to know each other while students.

Each year, the Langley director would give the Chief Scientist the job of 00:49:00selecting from the many Tech alumni at Langley those who would participate in

this whole day of interacting with the Tech engineering students and faculty.

The airplane that we had only held about eight passengers, but I was always one

of the eight people while I was 00:50:00there. It was always a fun day It gave me an

opportunity to see my son while he was a student. I also was there one time

while Charlie Yates was on the faculty, so I felt really good about all that.

But I also knew some of Matt's friends who were at Tech at the time, so I

enjoyed being able to see all of these familiar people. I always enjoyed that.

Ren: You were able to see yourself a little bit in some of those students. You

kind of remember what it was like to be in their shoes a little bit and trying

to get a job and get through that whole process.

Matt Sr.: Not really--- As I mentioned earlier, engineering grads were in great

demand nationwide when I was a student. The NASA offer was pretty much

guaranteed and I still had some other options. Getting a job was the 00:51:00 easiest

part of the whole experience.

Ren: Oh man. So did you spend your entire career at NASA?

Matt Sr.: Yes. I finished up at Tech on a Saturday, and I went to work at NASA

Langley on the following Monday morning. I stayed there for 36 years. That's the

only real job I ever had.

Ren: That's awesome. How did you meet your wife?

Matt Sr.: We grew up in the same neighborhood.

Ren: Margaret, right?

Matt Sr.: Yeah.

Ren: Margaret Winston. 00:52:00I want to talk a little bit about, and you mentioned it

earlier, obviously when Matt Winston, Jr., was considering college and I

listened back to your interview like I said, did you want to influence him to go

to Virginia Tech or how did you approach not telling him to go to Virginia Tech,

but encouraging him at the same time?

Matt Sr.: I didn't really pressure him one way or the other. I just tried to

make him understand that it was important that he go to college. I wasn't going

to steer him toward any particular school. I thought that it should be, within

reason, his own choice. Within reason meant any school in the country as long as

it was a state-supported institution in Virginia. [Laughs] 00:53:00He didn't seem really

interested in that subject at all for a while, but I knew he should have been.

Eventually, he was persuaded that further education was a pretty good idea.

My recollection of it is that in the summer between his junior and senior years

in high school, he got a job working for a home builder; and he spent all of day

one working in the blazing hot sun.

Matt Jr.: Ooh.

Matt Sr.: He came home at the end of the day and collapsed in the kitchen floor.

He says that was a defining moment. "Yeah, I'm going to college." I don't think

he showed up for day two.

Matt Jr.: That's a true story right there.

Ren: What do you remember about that?

Matt Jr.: I remember exactly what he just said. I worked construction for the

summer of my junior year in high school. And it wasn't that I wasn't serious

about going to college, I just didn't see the urgency in making that decision.

But yeah, after that summer I pretty much understood the difference between

working and using your mind and working and using your 00:54:00hands, and I made a decision.

And so then we started narrowing down, I really started to narrow down college

options for me, and my dad did say that, "You can go to any school in the

country you want to as long as it's in Virginia, because I want to pay an

in-state tuition." And then it really just all came together.

Ren: When he found out that he was accepted and coming to Virginia Tech how did

that make you feel?

Matt Sr.: Well, I felt good, but it was very easy because I still had friends at

Tech who could do things for us. When he finally decided, I made a phone call

and the one question that my friend asked was, "How are his SATs?" I said,

"They're good." She said, "Okay, tell him to start packing." In later years, he

paid that forward for me. 00:55:00I asked him numerous times to do whatever he could for

people who approached me with interest in possibly enrolling their child at

Tech. He always promptly provided the information they sought; and they continue

to thank me and give me some measure of credit for their child's success.

Ren: Can the both of you take me to the day when he was moving in his freshman

year? Can either one of you remember much about that day?

Matt Sr.: What I remember is all the hard 00:56:00labor that I and his roommate's father

went through getting their room together building [lofts] and that sort of

thing. One thing I remember for some reason or other, that was even more

strenuous than that was, was freshman orientation day. It rained all day long

all the way from Virginia Beach to Blacksburg and back, and we went up there and

came back the same day.

Ren: Oh wow.

Matt Sr.: They couldn't drive. I took the two of them up there that day, but

that was the longest trip I ever took in my life. You remember that day?

Matt Jr.: I do remember that day. The first move-in day, my roommate and I still

talk about this, one of the things I remember about that day is we were 00:57:00 like

everyone else trying to get our room together, build a loft. We had two lofts

and trying to get all that together.

Well, we went in thinking that my engineering father could just whip it up,

build it in about six minutes. But he was either not going to do that or didn't

want to do that. I don't know if he was trying to teach us the value of doing

our own hard work, but we were like how come the smart engineering guys are

putting our loft together for us without reading the instructions? That was a

part of that moving day, but it was as hectic a moving day as it is I think for

any student.

Ren: For anyone, yeah.

Matt Sr.: It wasn't fun. First of all, you know going in we didn't know that we

were going to need tools.

Matt Jr.: We didn't know we were going to have a loft. We saw them selling them

on the streets and we were like, "We want one of those too."

Ren: Right. Were these 00:58:00 wooden?

Matt Jr.: The wooded lofts, yeah.

Ren: I think I told you the story when I interviewed maybe it was you, when I

moved into Pritchard my freshman year the guy that lived next to me, I had a

metal one at the time, which is a little bit easier to put together. So I see

his dad pushing a cart and it's just wood stacked on top of each other, and my

dad looks at me and he goes, "I'm glad we're not doing that." Because they were

over there drilling and sawing and all kinds of stuff, which is you had to

experience. You lived in Vaughter, right?

Matt Jr.: Vaughter Hall.

Ren: If someone simply says the words Virginia Tech what's the first thing that

you kind of think of?

Matt Sr.: Actually now it's pride. It has not always been 00:59:00that. There were times

in the past when I have been asked, "Would you do it again?"; and I have said,

"Absolutely not." Not that anything really bad happened to me, but the isolation

then and the realization now that something bad could have happened at any time

caused me to say no I wouldn't have done it had I known I was going to go

through that. But, when I consider how Virginia Tech evolved through the years

since I left and the example that it has set for defining a true University not

only in Virginia but across the South, I am indeed proud to be a Hokie.

Ren: Through your 01:00:00time as a student and then coming back to talk to these

prospective employees of NASA and then obviously when Matt attended, what kind

of changes did you see over time with Virginia Tech?

Matt Sr.: Aside from the physical changes?

Ren: Yes.

Matt Sr.: That's basically all I really saw was the physical changes. It was

still the place with all these people who thought they were the brightest and

best people on earth, and one of the friendliest places I've ever been. That's

about it. But the striking thing is if you stay away for more than a couple of

weeks you are struck by the physical changes and it's really a much different

place 01:01:00physically than what it was when I was there.

Ren: Were there any long gaps when you kind of weren't coming back to campus or

kind of seeing the campus, many years or was it almost every few years?

Matt Sr.: Yes, there was a long gap----almost ten years after graduation. I went

back and I visited a couple that I mentioned earlier mainly to show off Matt.

They had added three more kids to their family that I never even knew about

because I had been out of touch for so long. He also had a new job that gave him

reason to frequently 01:02:00visit the Tidewater area. The whole family would visit us

every summer, and whenever he was in town on business, we would hang 01:03:00 out.

Ren: A few years after Matt had graduated, I guess in 1993 you funded the Legacy

mural for the Black Cultural Center. Can you talk a little bit about that? And I

want to show you a picture.

Matt Sr.: Yeah, I've got that picture. But I'll tell you, to me it's just

simple. He wrote me and told me what was going on and what it was about, and he

said, "You know it would be nice if we could do that," I don't think I had an

option to say no. Did you threaten me or what? [Laughs] So we just did it. But

the interesting thing about that was, on the day of the ceremony I walked in and

I saw a fellow sitting 01:04:00there who worked at Langley. He was an aircraft

technician who, for a time, I saw every day. He was there because his brother

was the guy who painted the mural. So there was a person there that I was very

familiar with, but never knew that we had a connection of any kind until then.

Ren: Right. What do you remember about that day?

Matt Jr.: I was glad that it came together and because of what it was and

because I had been amongst that group of students that was really pushing for

even the creation of the 01:05:00Black Cultural Center, to have an opportunity to sort

of leave a mark behind on it I was personally really interested in. But then

because it was titled and about the legacy of not only black students at

Virginia Tech, but black history. I was glad that we, my father and I got the

opportunity to be the sponsors of that. It just seemed like synergy to me. It

seemed like it was meant to be. It was just sort of a happy moment.

Ren: I love the picture. It's a good one. So VT Stories, a big portion of what

we try to do is interview an alumni about advice or mentorship that they got as

a student. 01:06:00If you could speak to any of the engineering majors who are

interested in a career at NASA what kind of advice would you give them as you

have when you came back to campus and talked to some of these prospective future

NASA engineers or scientists or whatever? What kind of advice would you give

them? What would you say to them?

Matt Sr.: Perhaps, I would say to them that no matter where you choose to go to

work, what you got at Virginia Tech will serve you 01:07:00well. The Tech reputation is

out there everywhere you go. The quality of the education is top notch. So, if

you do what you're supposed to do, you will have a rewarding future.

Ren: Yeah. A couple of years ago I guess was a pretty important event in your

family when Matt came back to Virginia Tech as the associate VP for Alumni

Relations. I think I asked Matt in his interview, what was that phone call like

or the conversation when he told you he was coming back to Virginia Tech? How

did that make you feel?

Matt Sr.: Well I was 01:08:00glad. I was overwhelmed with joy for him because he was

delirious. He was very very happy about that, and I was too, because he is

probably the most die-hard Hokie I've ever known, this guy right here. He was

destined to be there. That's where he should be.

Ren: Do you remember what that was like in telling him?

Matt Jr.: Not really. I mean I sensed that he was happy for me. I don't recall

it being a long conversation. It might even been a text or an email because it

was such a blur or whirlwind for me during those couple of days and hours 01:09:00 around

getting the opportunity to do this.

But what I do really reflect on now and I've been doing it a lot was kind of

what happened after that. And I may have said this in the earlier interview, but

in the process or in the throes of doing all of these events that I get to do

and traveling around the country and meeting Hokies of all ages all over the

place, particularly when we have our Old Guard reunions, which is such an

important group at Virginia Tech, the number of alums who graduated or attended

in the 50s who once I say my name and tell my story, you know they come up to me

and they ask me about my dad. They say that they remember him being here,

remember having interactions with him. That's always interesting to me, and not

only people who may have been in class or been in the Corps with him, 01:10:00but as he

mentioned many of them ended up working at NASA. And so there have been people

who I vaguely remember, but know that they were working there or I met them

through like when they came to campus for NASA day. And then even at the last

one there was a guy, and I won't remember his name, I'm sure my dad will, there

was a guy who was a part of a carpool. There were about four people who

carpooled from Virginia Beach to Langley every day or most days, and this guy

was in it.

Matt Sr.: That was Bill Johnson.

Matt Jr.: Bill Johnson, that's right, and I would not have had any reason to

think about Bill Johnson since 1981 or something, '85 or whatever it is. And

then Bill Johnson walks up and he says, "You may not remember me, but..." and

tells that story. And then as soon as he said it I remembered it, and I

remembered him and remembered his face and all that kind of stuff. But getting

to hear those stories from 01:11:00some of his fellow colleagues and students has

actually been pretty interesting to me. And after each one of them I always make

sure I take a selfie with them or something, and then I call or email my dad

pretty much immediately and say, "Okay, do you remember this person? Because

they just walked up to me and told me this story about you." So just to know

that those connections small world kind of stuff still exists. That's really

been common, at least with the connection between where he started and where I

am now that it all kind of comes together.

Ren: How proud are you of Matt?

Matt Sr.: I'm extremely proud. I brag about him all the time. I try not to be

obnoxious, but I do.

It took me a 01:12:00while for it to sink in really. I carry around, there was a

newspaper article I guess in the Roanoke paper shortly after this happened and

somebody sent it to me. It may have been you, may or may not. I keep a copy of

that in my car, so whenever somebody starts bragging about their kids I can whip

it out and, "Take a look at this." I do.

There's this one guy that I have known for a few years (a real rough around the

edges kind of guy) who had a son to go to Tech. Before his son went to Tech,

this guy asked me a lot about it before opening his wallet.

The son has graduated by now. I ran into the father 01:13:00recently. I asked him, "How

is your boy doing?" "He's doing all right. How's yours?" I said, "He's doing

well. They just made him a vice president." He looked over at me and he could

barely say anything. He slammed his beer down on the bar and exclaimed, "Vice

president! Good Lord, How did he pull that off?" [Laughs]

Ren: Did you show him the newspaper article?

Matt Sr.: That particular day I didn't have it, but I think that's what prompted

me to start carrying it around.

Ren: That's awesome.

Matt Sr.: But he's not somebody that I see often. It just happened that we

showed up at the same place at the same time.

Ren: I think you have a lot to be proud of. He's pretty awesome. A few last

questions. Thank you for being so generous with your 01:14:00time on your birthday. This

is kind of a broad question that we always like to ask people we interview, but

what does Virginia Tech mean to you?

Matt Sr.: Ooh. I'm trying to think of an answer to that. That is a tough

question, I'll try to answer it by saying what my experience at Tech gave to 01:15:00 me.

It taught me the importance of being a gentleman. It taught me the value of

humility. It taught me how to deal with adversity. Finally, after Matt's early

nonchalance regarding 01:16:00college, I am so very pleased that he chose to be a Hokie.

Ren: Was he having a little too much fun at Kempsville High School?

Matt Sr.: Yeah. See, he probably didn't tell you this. He was like the leader of

the pack in high school, and he brought some of that with him to Blacksburg. You

should know that. He had a bunch of rogues that he called best friends, but he

was always the leader of the pack. How many of them were president of the

student body?

Matt Jr.: Two of my roommates were student body presidents.

Matt Sr.: At least two. I thought there was...

Matt Jr.: Two were student body presidents and then a whole host of other

friends who were student body presidents.

Matt Sr.: So yeah, he was having a good time in high school and I think that

part came too easy to him or something.

Ren: I just had to get that in there and give him a hard 01:17:00 time.

Matt Sr.: His musicianship, did he ever talk about that?

Ren: No. What? No.

Matt Sr.: When he was in high school he was a big-time band participant --

marching band, concert band, jazz band. You name band, he was involved. The

reason I guess it sticks with me is because I was always being volunteered to

get involved in projects in support of the band. Sell this, sell that, work the

concession stand at football games, and on and on.

Ren: What was your instrument?

Matt Jr.: I got to play a lot of them. I started on the piano, which I never got

to know my grandfather, but knowing that he was a piano musician I thought that

was kind of special. But then I played all the instruments, so started with the

trumpet and kind of moved my way through a whole bunch of them, but yeah, I was

in the band.

Ren: 01:18:00I was in the marching band. I was in the band as well. I played snare drum.

I didn't know that. That's pretty neat.

Matt Sr.: He caused his parents to buy a piano, and several other instruments

which they couldn't afford.

Ren: Right.

Matt Sr.: Musically, he showed promise; but like numerous other things where he

showed interest, his enthusiasam soon faded. I think he can still probably knock

out a few notes on the piano, but I doubt if he can do anything at all with any

of the other instruments. Right?

Ren: [Laughs]

Matt Jr.: That is probably true, yes sir.

Ren: I was playing the piano in Holtzman the other day for Sandy and Sharon, and

then when I interviewed Bill, because Bill is a piano player and then he started

playing. He is much better than 01:19:00I. That's pretty neat.

Matt Sr.: If you ever get an opportunity before he loses it totally ask him to

play that -- what's that Charlie Brown song that you always like to play? What's

the name of that song?

Matt Jr.: Linus and Lucy, the theme.

Ren: The theme, right. The next time we're in Holtzman together I may put you on

the spot.

Matt Sr.: Do that. He talked me into doing this so I'll put him on the spot.

Ren: There you go. [Laughs]

Matt Sr.: Everybody you know Matt Winston is an accomplished player.

Ren: Is there anything you would like people to know about you that maybe you don't?

Matt Sr.: No. If they don't know it already they don't need to know it.

Ren: I could stay here all day and talk to both of you. 01:20:00I really appreciate you

again being so generous with your time. The last question is is there anything

that I didn't ask you that you want to add or for either one of you that you

would like to say? It's just an open-ended 01:21:00 question. 01:22:00Matt Jr.: All of this, just hearing all this from my father it just kind of

reminds me that the whole thing is just a cosmic blessing. I have a grandmother

who is proud of her son for coming to Virginia Tech and then that same son is

proud of his son for coming to Virginia Tech. 01:23:00And the fact that I get to serve

in this role where I feel like I help people reconnect and stay connected to

their alma mater, you know I'm excited about it and I do it because of what I

know he went through. And if everything that he and his classmates can go

through they walk out of here and they say they still love Virginia Tech, then

I'm like why shouldn't everybody love Virginia Tech? That's just how I feel in

my heart. And so I think that's what my calling and my job is, and so it may

sound like a movie script or something, but I couldn't be doing what I'm doing

if my dad hadn't done what he did.

So I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful that it's kind of unrolled this way. I'm

always saying go Hokies.

Ren: I want to thank the both of you again. Happy Birthday sir, again.

Matt Sr.: Thank you.

Ren: I would say Mr. 01:24:00Winston, Sr., Happy Birthday and class of 1959, thank you

so much for sitting down with VT Stories. I really appreciate it. Nice meeting you.

Matt Sr.: Thank you.