VT Stories Oral History with Joe Frazier, October 30, 2017 (Ms2016-015)

Ren Harman: I'll do a little housekeeping at the top and then we'll get started.

Joe Frazier: Sweet.

Ren: Awesome. Thank you so much for doing this. So good morning. This is Ren

Harman the project director for VT Stories. Today is Monday, October 30, 2017 at

about 10:07 AM. We were in Shanks Hall on the campus of Virginia Tech with a

very special guest. This is the first time and the only time that I will prompt

you. If you could just say in a complete sentence my name is, when you were born

and where you were born.

Joe F: Okay. My name is Joe Frazier. I was born in [00:00:35 ...Comstock],

Germany on [November] 2, 1990.

Ren: What years did you attend Virginia Tech?

Joe F: So, I did my undergrad here at VT from 2009 to 2013 and then I took a

year off and came back for grad school from 2014 to 2016.

Ren: What were your majors?

Joe F: So, in undergrad I got my bachelor's in sociology 00:01:00and another bachelor's

in philosophy. And then for grad school I entered in the sociology program and

then I also tacked on a second master's in philosophy.

Ren: Can you just tell me a little bit about growing up and your early life?

Joe F: Yeah. So, growing up, so I have an older sister and an adopted sister

that came into my life probably in high school. But my folks were in the

military, so my father is a retired full colonel, and we moved on average every

two years. So, I was born in Germany and we stayed there maybe two years or so

and then we moved on average every two or three years, so I lived in Texas. I

lived in Florida, lived in Georgia. I lived in Belgium for three years, Indiana,

and I believe Virginia was the last place my father was stationed and that was

around 7th grade for me. And so I stayed in Virginia 00:02:00for I guess the rest of my

life after that.

Ren: What kind of things did you get into as a child?

Joe F: Oh man. So, I was really outdoorsy. I had a huge interest in like bugs

and stuff like that. I remember in I guess middle school is when that show Man

Versus Wild first came out on Discovery. So I had a lot of friends and we would

go out and try to like catch turtles in lakes or rabbits in urban neighborhoods,

not urban, but in suburban neighborhoods and that kind of thing, so we always

stayed busy doing that kind of stuff. I was also really into gaming. I think my

first system that I got was a Gameboy pocket back in the day, and I had a

PlayStation 1, so I don't remember which one came out first. But before that I

would always be a friend's house playing their Nintendo's or Dreamcast or

something like that.

Ren: Can you talk a little bit about your mom and 00:03:00dad? I know you said your dad

was in the military.

Joe F: Yeah. So my parents are both from Georgia, so my dad is from a small town

called Augusta, Georgia, and my mom is from Savannah, Georgia. And actually,

both of them were military families as well, but my parents met at UGA and they

got married there. I'm not sure to this day what exactly my father did in the

Army. I know he served in Desert Storm. I think he was in the Signal Corps, but

I don't really specifically what all he did, and then my mom was a teacher

growing up, so she taught art. You know with each move she would go from working

at different schools to eventually becoming I would say a full-time mom at home

and doing a lot of stuff on 00:04:00the military side that Army wives do. So there's

like an officer's wives' I think club that she ran and a couple of other things

as well.

Ren: What role did education play in the home?

Joe F: Education was huge, so my parents they both went to school and they both

obtained a master's degree as well at UGA. I know that my father was really big

on pushing it, or my mom too, but especially as black Americans that my

generation has a lot more options than they had when they were my age, so really

playing up to get your education and go do big things or better things. And so

you know, like even in high school, middle school you know like C's weren't

accepted. B's okay, but why didn't you get a A, that kind of thing, so they

really pressed us on our grades 00:05:00growing up too.

Ren: Yeah. When you first started thinking about college how did Virginia Tech

come into the picture and how did that whole process happen?

Joe F: So, I think with my whole college experience or story anyway, I don't

think it's as romantic as other students can be as far as the passion goes and

where they want it to go. I knew I had to go to college. Where I went, it's not

that I didn't care, but it just wasn't a big deal to me. I wanted to go to law

school originally, so I was like where is a good school if you want to go to law

school, so I thought UVA, Cornell, and then Virginia Tech was my third choice

actually. And basically, so I got a full ride on a ROTC scholarship to go to

whichever school I wanted, but I ended up actually getting wait-listed at UVA

and Cornell, because 00:06:00unfortunately my senior year I goofed off and I got I think

it was a D in physics.

Ren: Oh, okay. [Chuckles]

Joe F: So, that held me, that got me wait-listed at all the schools. It's a

shame I waited until my senior year to get my first D.

Ren: Indian River High School, right?

Joe F: Yes, that was at Indian River High School in Chesapeake. Yeah, so I was

like well, I guess I'm going to Virginia Tech, but I ended up dropping the ROTC

scholarship, only because, no offense to the Corps, but I felt like I wouldn't

be getting the full college experience that I wanted. And luckily, I had enough

in academic scholarships to cover my first two years of college, and then for my

last two years I was able to use half of my father's GI bill, so we ended up

splitting it my sister and I 50/50. So she got it for two years and I got it for

my last two years.

Ren: That's cool. Did your parents ever talk about 00:07:00you going to UGA?

Joe F: No, they didn't actually. Yeah, I don't know if it's something, maybe

because no one in my family really watches sports either, but there's not much

of a loyalty I guess to wherever it is we used to attend, so they never really

spoke about going to UGA. I think they just said go for the top school you can

get into without having to pay.

Ren: Where did your sister go?

Joe F: So my sister went to Norfolk State.

Ren: So that was pretty close to home, right?

Joe F: Yeah, right down the street.

Ren: When you entered your freshman year at Virginia Tech was your degree went

there the same as when you left?

Joe F: No, so I came into Virginia Tech undecided. Yeah, I had no idea what I

wanted to study. I knew I wanted to go to law school, but didn't know what major

would be best, so I went in undecided, and just 00:08:00kind of taking the general

courses. At first, I was thinking about going the business track, but then when

I got into the sociology courses and the philosophy courses I was like you know

what, these really interest me and pushed me to think in a different way.

Especially with sociology I think sheds a lot of light on the reasons why our

society is the way it is today, so those really intrigued me, and I went from

there to you know what, I'm going to get these degrees.

Ren: Your first day on the campus of Virginia Tech do you kind of remember what

it looked like or smelled like or even felt like?

Joe F: Yes. It was an interesting experience. So, you know, Virginia Tech is a

predominantly white campus, so I had some interesting experiences. So my first

experience was before I even got to Virginia Tech. You know you can go on Hokie

[Spa] to see who your roommates are going to be, and so I saw who my first

roommate 00:09:00assignment was. I don't remember his name, but it was this white guy.

And so I reached out to him on Facebook. I said, "Hey, my name is Joe Frazier.

We're going to be roommates," and I never got a reply back on Facebook. And then

about a week later I saw that I had gotten reassigned a new roommate, so I

thought that was kind of interesting. And my new roommate was this white guy

named Christian and he was a great dude, so we had a great time freshman time.

But I do remember in my English course freshman year on my first day there was a

guy in class who came up to me and was like, "Hey man, are you Joe Frazier?" And

I was like, "Yeah." He was like, "Yeah, I've seen you before. Do you know so and

so?" And the person who he mentioned was actually the person that was supposed

to be my first roommate, and he was like, "Yeah, we went to the same high school

and he showed me your picture and basically said he was scared to be your

roommate," and that's he backed out, so that's what happened with my first 00:10:00roommate situation.

Ren: He was scared to be your roommate?

Joe F: Yeah. You know, I guess it's because of the black skin or maybe it was my

build at the time or all that in combination, but yeah, the person got scared of

being my roommate.

Ren: What did you think when that guy told you that? What was your reaction?

Joe F: You know I wasn't surprised. I think, well not that I think, but I know

that my identity I guess as a black male and then as a larger black male,

especially when I was into like weightlifting and all that stuff at the time,

easily gets perceived as intimidating by a lot of people. It's nothing that I

wasn't used to already before I got to Tech, because the same stuff happened in

Chesapeake, whether it was interactions with police or even just growing up in

high school, this automatic assumption of, "Oh man, when I first met 00:11:00you I

thought you were to be a bully." But you know, it's not the case; I'm a nice guy.

Ren: Yeah, right.

Joe F: Yeah, and unfortunately, so like that experience was, so I had an inkling

of what the issue was when that first happened the summer before I got to Tech.

But then when I got to Tech I remember on my first day, so I was in Vaughter

Hall and at the time it was an all-male dorm. I met my roommate Christian, a

cool dude. And then I remember going to the bathroom, so I was the only black

person on my floor as far as I knew, and then so I go to the bathroom and

happened to run into this guy named Kendell, another black dude, and found out

that he's on like the other side of the hallway. So we kicked it off really fast

and I think it was the next day, so still before classes start but they allowed

us to move in, and they had 00:12:00what's called the --

I don't know if it's called the Summer Bash or what it is, and it's a big event

in McComas Hall, like a big party that welcomes all the students. And so Kendall

was like, "Did you hear about this event?" and invited me to come with him to

the Summer Bash, and I actually met some other guys that he met who also were

all black on this first. So we're a little group getting to know each other

where we're all from, and so we go to this event in McComas and the line is like

long. So it's going down the road I guess adjacent to the McComas parking lot.

So we're waiting in line to go inside this event and so while we're waiting this

group of basically it was white girls came out the building, and so I decided

let me ask them how is the party on the inside, because if it's not worth it

then we can go do something else, go find food somewhere else, whatever.

So they were walking 00:13:00by and I walk up to them and I ask them, "Hey, how's the

party on the inside?" And they looked at me and my group and friends and said,

"Oh, well they have fried chicken on the inside so you guys will be happy." So

you know, I heard it. My group heard it. They got angry, but you know, they all

walked off and it was one of those things like well, is this what Virginia Tech

is going to be like being here, and that was the second day I guess at VT. You

know, and again, it's not that VT is racist like Blacksburg, Virginia or

anything like that specifically, because I think a lot of these issues can

happen at any campus. And again, just kind of growing up in the south or just

all the different places I'm from, these experiences weren't anything new, you know.

Ren: Right.

Joe F: 00:14:00So it wasn't like oh my goodness, what have I gotten myself into. It's

understanding that you're here to get a degree. You're going to meet folks like

this because you met folks like that before you got to school. This is just

another day. And a couple of incidences like that happened throughout my time at

Virginia Tech, but by far the god experiences outweighed like those instances.

Ren: When that young lady said that do you think she was trying to be funny? How

did you guys take it? I just wonder.

Joe F: Oh we were offended. I mean it's one of those things where at this point

I don't really know, I don't spend much time trying to consider what peoples'

intentions are, I just focus on the impact, right. You know, maybe she honestly

believed that you know black folks really love fried chicken any more than any

other population, right. Everybody loves fried chicken.

Ren: Yeah, 00:15:00 right.

Joe F: I took it offensively. I felt like it was just rude for the sake of being

rude, yeah.

Ren: I meant to ask you this when I was doing a little research on you, what is

your father's name?

Joe F: My father's name is Joseph Frazier the same way my name is Joseph

Frazier, and my great-grandfather's name was Joseph Frazier too, but all our

middle names are different so that there weren't any, like the junior didn't

apply I guess. So like my father's middle name starts with a J so everyone

called him JJ Frazier, but still the whole smoking Joe Frazier, that kind of

stuff applied. And then the same way with me growing up, you know, it's great

for name recognition. A lot of folks recognize the Joe Frazier name and all 00:16:00that, but also in like high school I did football. I wrestled and I threw shot

put. I wasn't outstanding at any of those, but you know. Anyway, that was one of

the things I had to be weary of like in wrestling don't get slammed. In football

don't get...

Ren: Because down goes Frazier, right?

Joe F: Yeah, exactly, because down goes Frazier.

Ren: Did you grow up in a church by chance?

Joe F: Yeah. So my family raised me in the Church of Christ, so I grew up in

that. Church every Sunday for morning service, more often than not go to evening

service as well, and then service on Wednesday nights.

Ren: The reason I asked is your dad is a church elder, is that correct?

Joe F: Yeah, hmm, so he's an elder at the church in Chesapeake.

Ren: I grew up in the church also, which it wasn't Church of Christ, but 00:17:00 it's

pretty close Pentecostal, Assembly of God sort of. Can you talk a little bit

about the black church and what it's like growing up in a black church?

Joe F: Yeah. So the Church of Christ is in my opinion of the many I will say

different sects of Christianity is probably the most orthodox sect in that it's

by the book strict interpretation of the Bible. And the congregation, so a bunch

of different Churches of Christ that I've been to, and I know historically I

think if we look at like church statistics it's usually a predominantly black

church. And based on where I was, the congregation was usually heavily black or

a very mixed congregation. Like the one in Chesapeake is very mixed.

The one in 00:18:00Georgia I remember as being mostly black but it was also a mix. When

I lived in Belgium the congregation was mostly all black, but also we had a lot

of folks from like Ghana and Nigeria that were in the same faith as well. And so

you know, the church was really loving people. We had a lot of events around

food. I remember like potlucks on Sundays and that kind of stuff, that was

great, and really enjoyed the singing, you know, so the gospel music and stuff.

I don't know if you would call it downside or what based on your religious

views, it does have the heavily gloom and doom kind of overtone stuff.

Ren: Kind of fire and brimstone.

Joe F: Yeah, fire and brimstone, you know, if you fall out of line with the

beliefs and practices.

Ren: Right. I've been in a lot of these services, so it's interesting to share

an experience. It's kind of similar to what you're talking 00:19:00about, a lot of

potlucks and things like that. How did growing up in that church kind of help,

how did it influence how you kind of saw the world and the way you kind of lived

your life, or did it?

Joe F: That's a good question. Yeah, no , so it definitely did. Actually I guess

growing up I helped get a couple of my friends baptized, and that kind of thing

definitely influenced, I want to say most things that I did. Granted nobody is

perfect, but there's this view that we're all sinners, so that was definitely a

heavy influence in my life, making sure that you're doing the right thing. You

know WWJD, what would Jesus do, so trying to weigh the decisions with I make

with the possible consequences and that kind of thing was a really big

influence. 00:20:00Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to think more about it, because my

relationship with that church isn't what it used to be, so it's kind of one of

those weird conversations when your family is still a big part of the church,

but you just have a lot of questions I guess and started to feel as though the

answers you were getting were no longer sufficient, so it's a different place

right when it comes to that.

Ren: Talking about your experience at Virginia Tech and majoring in sociology

and philosophy, do you think that had any connection to your growing up in the church?

Joe F: I think that the philosophy aspect really, it influenced kind of, right,

so philosophy really encourages you to question everything, right. And not just

to question stuff, but really self-reflect and weigh-out consequences and stuff

with different 00:21:00 views.

And for a while, I will say while I was questioning beliefs I got used to

Pascal's Wager. And for those unfamiliar... Well first of all before I say this,

I'm a big fan of Pascal's Wager and no offense to Pascal, but I feel like you

know, anyone that does enough critical self-reflection on religious beliefs,

especially ones as severe as the church I was raised in that you would come to

this kind of thought sooner or later, right. I think Pascal is the first to get

it published. But basically the whole idea is when you look at life in terms of

consequences it's safer to believe in God than not to believe in God, right. If

you believe in God and you die you are probably going to go to Heaven, which is

debatable, right. It's 00:22:00more than just belief, but you're more likely to go to

Heaven than if you don't believe in God and it turns out that God doesn't exist

you're fine, but if God does exist you're not fine. But yeah, if you believe in

God and it turns out God doesn't exist then you're fine, and if it turns out

that God does exist you're still fine, so it's safer to believe than not to believe.

Ren: Than not to believe, right.

Joe F: But when you think about it, I guess another question that comes when it

comes to consequences and thinking about it that way is "believing" if it's out

of fear really believing or not, you know, and that's a whole nother scenario.

But yeah, and I had a Philosophy of Religion course too my freshman year that I

thought was awesome, and I was a big defender of my Christian belief, my

freshman year in that course as well in just different ways to 00:23:00parse out

different, discrepancies that folks would bring up and that kind of thing I

thought was great.

Ren: What were some kind of notable professors and advisors that you had during

your undergrad career that you can kind of remember?

Joe F: So yeah. My undergrad, so first off my Philosophy of Religion professor I

think she actually may have been a teaching assistant at the time and I don't

remember her name. Unfortunately, she actually got in a car accident that

Christmas break, so I had her class for a semester, and then over break she got

in an accident and ended up dying.

Ren: Wow.

Joe F: Yeah, but she was great. It feels disrespectful that I don't remember her

name, but that was a while ago, so she was great. Dr. Pitt, Joseph Pitt in the

Philosophy Department, I think he was the first Intro to Philosophy 00:24:00course that

I took, was him teaching Intro to Philosophy and I loved it.

I think that's really why I fell in love with the course. I think the first day

one of the quotes he introduced was Socrates' the unexamined life is not worth

living, so you should really be reflecting on your life and that kind of thing.

And that's actually one of my tattoos that I have across my chest is that

Socrates quote. Yeah, and my other tattoo actually is my first one that I got on

my arm is a Bible verse, so I guess it was those religious undertones coming back.

Ren: Yeah, right. Which Bible verse?

Joe F: So it's 2nd Timothy, oh Lord I done forgot what's on my arm.

Ren: I put you on the spot. [Laughs]

Joe F: Yeah. It's funny with tattoos too, after a while you forget you have them

if you haven't looked at in a long amount of time. What is it, 2nd Timothy... Lord.

Ren: That's all right.

Joe F: I will get it back to you, but it says, 'For God has not given us the

spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of 00:25:00a sound mind.' 2nd Timothy 1

something. It's on my arm.

Ren: What role did mentorship play during your time? We can look at your

graduate career also in terms of professors or advisors. Do you feel like you

were mentored in a way by any folks?

Joe F: That's another kind of hard question. And it's a question I've asked

myself this year actually just kind of looking back when it comes to undergrad

and grad school, as far as if I had mentors. You know that's not to do anyone

disrespect, because there are a lot of good people I met, but I never... I guess

it's hard that, I don't feel like I established a super close relationship with

any of my faculty or professors. There are definitely folks that looked out for

me. Dr. 00:26:00Klagge in the Philosophy Department who was my advisor on the philosophy

side was a great person, you know, and really looked out for my well-being. But

I do feel like I didn't necessarily have I guess a mentor. And there may have

been folks who tried to be my mentor and maybe I just didn't pick up on those

cues, but I feel like my you know, my whole college experience is a bunch of

different interactions with different people who all had different influences.

You know I joined the Student African American Brotherhood my freshman year and

I met a lot of my friends through that. I actually ended up being the vice

president of that later on. I think in grad school it's probably my peers I

think that had more influence over what I wanted to do and helped shape my

ambitions more so than my department.

Ren: So, we talked a little 00:27:00bit about this earlier, but what are some of your

favorite memories or experiences?

Joe F: Just at Virginia Tech or is that undergrad specific or grad school specific?

Ren: The whole, how many years? Undergrad, grad, working.

Joe F: I don't know, I guess as far as my favorite experiences go because I had

a lot of them, so there's no shortness of experiences. I would say right now, so

one of the things, I worked through undergrad and grad school too, but I started

off working in the dining halls my sophomore year. I worked at Owens Dining Hall

and I met a lot of great people there. You know it's always, I like meeting

other college students that worked through their experience too. You've got to

pay rent and you've got bills to pay and stuff, and I think sometimes you get

more of a down to 00:28:00earth experience with the folks who had to work versus

sometimes those who didn't.

But yeah, so I met a lot of great people in the dining hall and that's actually

where I met my fianc√(c) now too. So me and Karen have been dating for, well I

mean we're engaged, so I don't know if you say you stopped dating or not, but I

guess for five years, and we met working at Owens Dining Hall together. I was

actually her manager. Actually we didn't really pay much attention to each

other, or at least I didn't pay much attention to Karen while we were on the

clock. But then over the summer we met at a party and just hit it off from

there, in an inseparable sense, right.

Ren: Yeah, that's awesome.

Joe F: So that dining hall experience if I wasn't there at Owens I never would

have met Karen. We didn't have any classes that overlapped or anything. Let me

think what other experiences. I don't know, it was a lot, 00:29:00whether it was just

living on campus or off campus and just the different folks that I met along the way.

Ren: You talked about the Brotherhood that you joined. What kind of things did

they do?

Joe F: So SAAB, the Student African American Brotherhood was really like a black

professionalism for a black male organization, right. So when it came to stuff

like... We do a lot of fundraisers to raise money. We used to work the booths at

the football games. That was our big fundraiser. They put on a black male summit

each year and we will have speakers come and we will talk about uplift and

brotherhood and stuff like that, and it was definitely a great place to get

started. I remember the president at that time, Lee, was a black dude, always

dressed suave in a suit and 00:30:00stuff like that.

We all looked up to him our freshman year. Like if there was a definition and

you looked in the book of 'the man' like Lee was the man, right. And so I think

he definitely helped at least in my freshman year not succumbing to just

partying and stuff every day, right the professionalism aspect. We are here to

do business. We are here to get our degrees and keep that as the first focus.

Ren: Kind of like a work hard, play harder kind of mantra, right.

Joe F: Right, right.

Ren: I think we all try to aspire to in some degree.

Joe F: We try but that freshman year can be hard.

Ren: We're close to the same age, and I lived in Pritchard Hall my freshman year

and I look at my GPA freshman and sophomore year and it just kind of went whoop,

went up after freshman and sophomore year. You mentioned a couple of these at

the top of the interview, but 00:31:00some difficult experiences. VT Stories isn't just

interested in collecting these wonderful stories about how everyone loves

Virginia Tech. We want the whole truth, and you mentioned a couple of these, but

were there any others that kind of stick out in your mind that you remember?

Joe F: Yeah, so there's always issues of race that come up. It's funny because

even talking about the Student African American Brotherhood I remember the first

year that we did the big event at Virginia Tech. Our group was placed in this, I

think it's off of Yellow Sulfur Spring Road I think, and I think there's a

building there that used to function as like a retreat. They had springs there

and folks would go when they had like polio and stuff like that was big and they

would go to the springs and stuff. So we were on that site moving wood, rocks,

cleaning some stuff up. And 00:32:00that year for the big event we had these bright

orange shirts that said in maroon Virginia Tech, you know, big event.

And we were doing some work on the side of the road and there was this older

white lady that was walking her dogs coming down the side of the road, and when

she saw us she had the nerve to ask if we were inmates doing community service

on the side of the road. It was like lady you can read our shirts that says

Virginia Tech big event. So that was another experience that happened freshman year.

Ren: How did you guys respond? What did you guys say?

Joe F: So it was my friend Ramone that it was said to specifically. I didn't

hear it and I actually don't remember what he said, if anything. But that was

the cool thing too about these groups, right, like Student African American

Brotherhood, like the Black Cultural Center in Squires, is that when these kinds

of experiences happen 00:33:00you're still in community with folks who are all

experiencing the same thing, so it's easier to process.

It's easier to laugh about it, right, because sometimes that's what you've got

to do is laugh it off.

Ren: If we didn't laugh we would cry.

Joe F: Yeah. This is random, but I also started a weightlifting club my freshman

year called Get Big Crew, GBC, and we would always be in War Memorial and stuff.

I guess other, when it comes to negative experiences I will just say outside of

issues specifically related to race, I think one of the things I had was it was

in grad school, right, kind of a rose-tinted glass, like outlook on stuff being

broken when it came to sociology, right. So I love philosophy, but soc is what I

really wanted to focus on and what I felt like was 00:34:00my, I don't know, calling or

what I could do the most with right. Because again, sociology we're studying

social problems, different theories on what creates these problems, all kind of

stuff like that.

So in my undergraduate career I felt like you know if I'm going to go out here

and say change the world in some respect, something for the greater good of all

people, sociology is the major where I can make that happen. It's giving me the

knowledge to identify these problems and then come up with solutions or

whatever. And so, you know, undergrad, I left with that view and then was

struggling to find a job. So I worked for a year in Montgomery County public

schools at an alternative school called Independent Secondary, and I was the

Phoenix coordinator. Basically the Phoenix program is a program throughout

Montgomery County, 00:35:00middle school and high school where if kids get suspended

instead of being in out of school suspension they can opt to be in Phoenix,

where they can still do their world and don't have to get counted as absent,

which ends up holding back a lot of students.

So I worked there, and I was also still working an internship I got through the

Soc Department at the Center for Survey Research, and I was a phone bank

supervisor there. But anyway, I'm getting off track. So when it comes to grad

school, right, because basically while I was working at Phoenix and then still

working this internship that's how I ended up getting a full assistantship to go

to grad school. You know nothing against schooling, but I hadn't planned on

going to grad school, but I saw that you know, if I can do it and I can do it

for free, you know, why not, and it could only raise my earning potential. So I

ended up going and then I ended up tacking on philosophy just because if I can

get one degree for free maybe I can get two.

And I ended up getting two. I wouldn't 00:36:00recommend it to anyone. It's a lot of

work trying to do two separate thesis and all that stuff. So within the Soc

Department, so I'm learning more about soc, way more on the grad level than the

undergrad level first off. And I guess one of the things that started to weigh

on me is this is a major that's heavily focusing on the social problems, all

kind of theories about it. And then after this paper papers get published on it

or whatever folks just move on to look at something else. And then from a

philosophical aspect, right, I feel like that's really immoral at the end of the

day to invest all this time in studying a social problem just to look back at it

and think to yourself oh, that's interesting. Or, oh, so these theories I think

apply, and then move on. Maybe you published a paper but that paper may just go

on a bookshelf somewhere 00:37:00and no one reads it, or at least give it to maybe a

non-profit or some org that can use this research to better do something.

And it may be different at other Soc Departments, but because I did all my

college in one place this is the only experience I have to go by, a personal

experience. And that's not to diss everyone in the Soc Department. There are

professors that are doing what I would consider activism and doing work, but

there's also I would say the majority who aren't, right.

Ren: So you felt you needed to take all these theories and things that you were

learning and put them into practice?

Joe F: Yeah. Maybe that's the, I guess philosophically we talk about morality,

it just seemed that this is wrong to study these populations, to come up with

these theories but not actually do anything with that research to better the

problem. So that was really my I guess disheartening experience in grad school

within my major, you know, and 00:38:00just kind of, there's got to be -- Well, I feel

like there should be a focus on okay, after we do this research how can we

implement it? Is it practical? Can this theory be put into practice? What my

thesis ended up being around was my first aspect of trying to actually put

theory into practice.

Ren: Okay. I wanted to mention, during your undergrad you served as the

Political Actions Chair for the NAACP college chapter, correct?

Joe F: Yeah, so that was actually my first year of graduate school.

Ren: I want to ask you a little bit about it because my wife is a teacher in

Montgomery County.

Joe F: Okay.

Ren: She worked at Blacksburg High School and now she's at Charlottesville

Middle as a math teacher. Can you talk a little bit about working as a Phoenix

supervisor and some of these kids that you kind of mentored or taught? I'm just

curious, what was that experience like?

Joe F: It was an interesting 00:39:00experience. I'm not going to say it was like an

eye-opening experience only because of, based off, so from education kind of

knowing theories and stuff around and just understanding the different

backgrounds a lot of these students have that led them to be in the place that

they were situation. And then also even in my undergrad over the summers back

when I still went home for the summers, right, I worked at an outreach camp in

Norfolk with the underserved youth and stuff like that. And it is interesting

just kind of looking at the students in a more rural area like we are here from

a more I will say urbanized area like Chesapeake, Norfolk, that kind of thing.

Ren: Right.

Joe F: The difference in I guess what society would deem as bad kids, right, in

that what -- I hate saying bad, I don't want to say the 00:40:00kids were bad, but with

those kind of students, troubled students, underserved students, just the kind

of background around them and the kind of issues they do to act out their

frustration is a lot different right, in this rural environment versus in an

urban environment. So that was one of the things that really stood out. And

then, on top of that, so I got along well with a lot of the kids and I think one

of the big things was having patience and understanding and just trying to

encourage them, because sometimes I feel as though the students maybe have more

insight into some issues than their teachers do right. A lot of them I think

sometimes are being feed this idealized view of you can be anything, you can be

anything without 00:41:00giving them the I don't know, harsh truth or realities of just

certain aspects of life. You had students who I'm not going to college. My plan

is to go straight into the military after I graduate, you know, but the military

is a lot more selective now in who they take versus who they don't. So if you

have a terrible record of behavior and all this stuff and you're just banking on

the military when you get out, it might not be as easy to get in as you're

thinking it's going to be.

In the same vein just trying to get students to understand that it's hard to

live on minimum wage and you're setting yourself up basically up for a career

trajectory or path when you graduate that you're not going to be able to make as

much money as you think, or that the amount of money that you want to make isn't

going to take you as far as you may believe, right. So just trying to keep it

real with the students about you want to try to do your 00:42:00best because you just

don't want to close off options for yourself.

And even understanding that right now you're at this alternative school. It's a

reduced workload. You don't have homework, those kind of things, you know, do

your best here because it's not going to get easier. Maybe it's ignorant of me

to say this, but this is probably going to be the easiest moment of your life

right now and when you graduate you're out there on your own. So do your best

here to at least get in the practice of doing your best just because it only

gets harder from here.

Ren: So you feel like you served as a role model to some of these kids in a way?

Joe F: Definitely. Yeah, definitely. I had students that I worked personally

with that their social workers would come to me to talk to the kids about and

stuff like that, and try to get them to do different things or understand

certain things. You 00:43:00know even just being real with my students that there is, so

I think like growing up my parents really brought home the message that as a

black male in the U.S. that a lot of folks sometimes will think looks

intimidating from the beginning or whatever that you're going to have to work

twice as hard and twice as long to get the same thing. I still hold on to that

message when I'm talking to especially young black youth that same mentality I

think still applies.

And that's another thing in this rural area that's not as diverse as Chesapeake

or Norfolk to the amount of students of color that I would get in Phoenix I

thought seemed a little strange, right. So this high school is 00:44:001% black. It's

weird having six black kids from the same high school in Phoenix. So with the

NAACP we put on this event called the High School Allyship and Activism

Leadership Conference. We've done it two years in a row now and basically it

serves as an opportunity for high schoolers across Montgomery County to come to

Virginia Tech as a field trip, and we talk to them about basically allyship and

activism, right, so issues of race, of gender, all that kind of stuff. One of

the things that the students of color always have a problem with is how they are

treated in Montgomery County public school systems, right. So was it three years

ago we had the big incident with the confederate flag that happened at

Christiansburg High School, and just kind of the stuff around that, folks using

the 'N' word in class in 00:45:00reference to other black students and just kind of

issues all like that. That stuff would come out in Phoenix as well.

And even right now I work with Virginia Organizing and advising the NAACP, and

one of the big things that Virginia Organizing is working on is how do we combat

these issues of racism or white supremacy within the school systems and how they

are being manifested towards the students, yeah.

Ren: I want to ask you, what I think was a national event that really spurred a

lot of activism on college campus was the death of Michael Brown, and I know you

traveled to Ferguson, correct?

Joe F: Yeah. Hmm.

Ren: Can you talk a little bit about that and just kind of the story when

everything happened?

Joe F: Yeah. So you know, this was definitely, this was in graduate school, and

I mentioned how my peers had the largest influence on me, and even still 00:46:00to this

day. One of them specifically was this guy named Devon Lee who is now teaching

at Radford, and is still a PhD student in the Soc Department. Devon was really

big I think when it comes to activism, and some folks would even say radical.

Whether or not I agree, I think radical can be used really loosely when you're

at a place that typically doesn't do anything, right. So when you finally start

challenging that status quo anything looks radical. Not to say Devon is not

radical, but I don't think it's to the extent that folks try to make it seem.

But anyway, it was one of those NAACP meetings and he was talking about

conviction, right, that goes along with anything. At the same time in

philosophy, I'm trying to think how I first got introduced to 00:47:00Apollo Freire who

was a philosopher from South America, and one of his more popular books is The

Pedagogy of the Oppressed. There's a real strong quote from that book that says

washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means

to side with the powerful and not to be neutral.

Ren: Right.

Joe F: Basically there is no neutrality right, when it comes to issues of

injustice. And when it comes to the whole police brutality thing, I mean this is

an issue that has plagued the black community since slavery ended, right, that

folks have always known about, black folks specifically. And now that technology

allows us to easily capture video footage of a lot of these injustices I think

more people believe than dismissed it as in the past, right. And when Michael

Brown got shot this was, you know, we're at the NAACP and 00:48:00it gets to this point

where you keep seeing this kind of stuff happening.

You know there are folks that were getting shot in high school and stuff, right.

Like this isn't anything new, but at what point is enough enough? At one point

do you have an obligation, right, a moral obligation to be doing something to

try to combat an issue, and even then, at what point are you fulfilling that

morale obligation, right. Like is a Facebook post enough to spread awareness? Is

that really activism or is there more to that? There's whole other philosophical

debates that I would have with myself and other folks how much energy do we need

to put into this to have done our part, and at what costs, so academic

education, whatever. But basically after we had this conversation at a NAACP

meeting at Convictions we decided yeah, we've got to go. We've got to go to

Ferguson and we have to see how we can help, or is there any way we can 00:49:00aid or

what can we do. And so I put out a call for students who wanted to come with me,

and I think four people responded. So Morgan Esthers who was the president of

the NAACP at that time, Alexis Harper, still my close friend to this day, and

Connor Shields. We made the ten-hour trip to Ferguson. I was reaching out to

folks over like Facebook and trying to find people who were doing work already

on the ground out there, and I got in contact with two guys who were students at

Mizzou and they were doing a lot of different activist projects. And so we met

up with them and so we saw where Mike Brown got shot, the memorial that they had

to him out there, and that kind of stuff.

And then as far as the action plans goes it just so happened on that weekend

that they were taking 00:50:00action against the local Walmart in that area, because

apparently they had donated $10,000 to Chief Wilson's fund, the police officer

that shot Michael Brown. So you know you're in a black community in a black area

and then the Walmart decides that I'm going to donate $10,000 to this police

officer that shot this guy.

Ren: What percentage of those Walmart employees do you think were black?

Joe F: The majority, and so the action plan was basically to shut that Walmart

down and to turn as many customers away as possible. And they had met with some

lawyers and stuff to find out what they could do within the confines of the law.

Basically what ended up happening was going into Walmart in pairs of two with

other folks and basically just going on a shopping spree, right, filling up the

cart with whatever you could, and then 00:51:00 going...

So personally, right, going through the checkout line and getting everything

rung up and then oops, like I forgot my credit card or I forgot my debit card,

or my EBT card doesn't have any money on it out here. Basically you know every

hour or every 30 minutes when you have somebody doing that it just backed all

the lines up until the point that, and it's unfortunate because you know the

workers there are frustrated, right, who are black workers, but they are working

for Walmart, so it's like this isn't to make your day bad, but we can't let what

this Walmart did go unjustified. And so basically they ended up not closing, but

the folks inside left, and then after we ran out of folks to basically clog up

the inside we all went to the outside of the Walmart. So it was at the bottom of

the 00:52:00hill, kind of like the Walmart in Christiansburg, so we were at the top of

that hill where all the main traffic flow was going by with signs and stuff and

then just turning cars away. So the parking lot ended up being empty that day

and that was the big thing that we did there for that weekend trip that we went down.

Ren: Do you know if them donating, was that a local Walmart decision or was that

a corporate decision? Did that ever come out?

Joe F: Yeah, I don't remember at this point.

Ren: That's unbelievable. I had never heard that story.

Joe F: Yeah, it was crazy, and when we were out there some TV crews came out and

a bunch of other people joined and the governor came out and all kind of stuff.

I think it was pretty successful. And then the same, when we got back here to

Blacksburg we did marches for Mike Brown, right, did a die-in in Squires, all

kind of stuff, and we did the same for Tamir 00:53:00Rice, for Sandra Bland, you know,

and the list goes on and goes, what we were doing here in Blacksburg working

with groups like the Coalition for Justice and that kind of thing.

And that's also what influenced basically my thesis in sociology, so again,

we've got all this police violence and stuff going on. And then you're in a

department where you're frustrated because we're studying these problems but

don't look at solutions. And so my thesis ended up being well when it comes to

the Black Lives Matter movement, when it comes to police brutality and all this

stuff what is something else that we can be doing outside of awareness, outside

of protesting.

Ren: Yeah.

Joe F: There's got to be some solution to this, or something we can do to help

relieve some of this stress. So actually my thesis was on, it was called the

Student Police Unity League, and basically there's a theory that I learned in

soc 00:54:00called inner-group contact theory. And actually I ended up doing grounded

research, and that's where I ended up doing most of everything before I applied

a theory to it, but I found a theory that worked, and so I was able to make it

into my thesis. But it's a program I had already started separate from my

thesis, just thinking there's got to be something that we can do.

And basically inner-group contact theory is the theory that when you take folks

from different groups and if you put them together in the same environment under

certain positive constraints that those groups will start to develop more

favorable outlooks at each other. And in the same time those outlooks will carry

on into their everyday life experiences and interactions outside of the group.

And so the idea was basically through, I collaborated with Blacksburg Parks &

Rec. I was able to raise about $3,500 at Virginia Tech reaching out to various

folks and a little GoFundMe and stuff like 00:55:00that. Basically the league was, so

Blacksburg Parks & Rec has co-ed sports teams, and it just so happened that it

was volleyball season at that time. And so I reserved four team spots to make

four teams where we would have police officers and black students integrated on

the same teams and compete together in the adult co-ed volleyball rec Teague.

And so Virginia Tech PD and Blacksburg PD were all for it. I met with all the

officers of Blacksburg PD. Chief Faust and Chief Darrin Wilson were very

cooperative and helpful in making it happen and getting police to come out, so

we ended up having I think 21 officers and maybe 18 or 19 students that

participated. And basically I was at all the games monitoring and released

surveys, basically had surveys 00:56:00taken by police officers and students to be able

to monitor and see whether or not students who played in this game and police

officers who played ended up having more favorable outcomes towards each other,

or more favorable views towards each other, or not in comparison to those who

did not participate in the program. Especially for all the academics that are

maybe listening or going to listen to this, there are a lot of, if I could do it

over again I have a lot of different constraints and ways that I would change

that I did as far as how surveying happened, multiple surveys, all kinds of

stuff. Because it ended up, my results ended up not being statistically

significant. The police didn't take the surveys at the end and that may be for

various reasons. It could be that if the evidence comes out damaging in some

sense we don't want that released, 00:57:00I don't know.

So I ended up having to scrap the police portion and just look at how it changed

students' views, right.

Ren: Are these primarily black students?

Joe F: Black and Hispanic students, yeah.

Ren: What were their views?

Joe F: So that's the thing right, so I don't remember my variables off the top

of my head, but it actually ended up showing a decreased level interest of

police with those who participated. That was one of the variables that I found

really surprising. That being said, none of my results were statistically

significant. I think I might have had one or two, but that one was not

statistically significant, right, so we've kind of got to take it with a grain

of salt.

And some of the other issues I think that compounded this issue is we have these

shootings that are still going on at the same time as this, and then also

student participation really drops, right. So after, I had a hard time getting

students to sign up for this, and then 00:58:00one day at a NAACP meeting right before

the due date that I had to have the team submitted I basically just gave a

speech or a talk to the general body that look, we have this issue of police

brutality going on. This program, I'm not saying it's going to solve anything,

but I think it's a start and it could be beneficial. And we all have to do our

part in trying to make things better. If we claim to be activists and we claim

to be about this life and want to stop this stuff from happening, this may open

the door to a way that we can better this problem. So if you're really about

that life I need ya'll to sign up to help this happen, and so I had 20 students

who just signed up that day.

So, you know, folks might have been feeling impassioned for the first two weeks,

and then you know, these are all students at Virginia Tech, so time goes on.

Basically students stop participating, so it ended up being I would be the only

student that showed up playing with a team of 00:59:00police officers, right, and that

could even negatively impact the way police look at this, right, because the

students aren't coming and aren't showing an investment anymore. So, those were

a lot of issues that compounded I think the results of the survey as well, the

few I was able to collect.

Ren: How do you think the police felt about it?

Joe F: So I didn't talk to any officers to straight-up just ask them how they

felt about it. But I was just kind of thinking if I could put myself in their

shoes I could see feeling as though either maybe disrespected or that they are

not taking my time seriously because we showed up and they are not here, right.

So I could definitely understand if there were views like that that could have

come. But at the same time I would hope understanding that these are college

students too, right, with erratic schedules and all kind of stuff. And then in

the span of the actual volleyball league goes from I think September to

December, so they had 01:00:00exams and all kind of stuff too.

That's one of the things where if I could do it all over again, and had plans to

do it all over again, I was looking into starting a non-profit for a while just

so that I could qualify for the grants, like the Department of Justice does a

cops grant to give them money to do this all over again. And I tried to do it in

a public school system under...

Ren: Just to try to get the relationship between police and students of color to

be a little more understanding of each other?

Joe F: It will be more intimate, right. It's in a place where they actually grow

up with these police officers versus college students who are just here for four

years and then leave. And a bunch of other stuff, but I feel like if I talk

about in too depth somebody might take my idea and run with it.

Ren: Okay, we will save that for our off-the-record conversation that we want to have.

Joe F: Cool.

Ren: I want to tell you a story and when I was researching you a little bit and

learning about the Student Police Unity League, I want to tell you this story. A 01:01:00couple of weeks ago I was traveling, so I grew up in a small town in southwest

Virginia and we can redact this story, but I just want to tell you this because

I want to get your thoughts. My tags had expired and I didn't know this, and I

was driving and I have a new car, a new Toyota Rave 4. And so I'm going through

Giles County and I get pulled over by a state police officer. He comes up to my

window and he's talking to me, and here I am I'm dressed like this. I'm a white

heterosexual man who is married. And I was like, "I know, I'm sorry. It's my

fault." I reach in my license and my registration and he comes back and he

writes me a ticket, which is fine. I told him, "Look, I'm probably just going to

pay this. I don't really have time to come to court, I'm sorry," whatever. So he

hands me the clipboard and he's pointing out like where I sign. And while he's

doing this he's shaking, like this, like his hand. And I wanted to 01:02:00 say

something. I wanted to ask him, "Hey, I'm okay. I'm not going to harm you.

Joe F: Right. Right.

Ren: I think about my own life and kind of as a white male in a nice car and

things, I mean it really hit something in me. And I started thinking about how

their jobs are and how they approach, because of all these things that have

happened. And this was a state police officer. This was like a small-town cop,

and he was pointing on the clipboard and his hand was shaking, and it just... I

was like God, you know. And so I don't know if you have any thoughts about that.

Joe F: Um, yeah, I don't know right, because it's a weird relationship,

especially trying to look at it from both sides and be objective, right. Lately

my experience with police officers has not been necessarily negative, right. 01:03:00 In

high school one of my first experiences, so in high school I worked two, I was a

busser at a restaurant and then moved into the kitchen and started my glorious

line cook career off-the-record, right.

But I remember one of my first experiences, I was at a mall in Norfolk, a

military mall with my debit card at a ATM machine trying to take some cash out

and I got approached by an officer who asked me who I stole the wallet from.

This was my wallet. It has my military ID in it, my civilian military ID and all

that kind of stuff, and I'm like, "Look, you can look in this wallet and see I

have my things in it." They didn't take it to actually look at it, they just

consistently asked, "Who did you steal the wallet from? There's a camera right

here. Just make this easier on yourself," which I thought was complete BS. But

then you know in Blacksburg I've gotten out of tickets, right, 01:04:00just being polite

or whatever and police, everything was fine.

In the same vein, I think in doing the activism and just different views on

action and self-defense and that kind of stuff, right, like I have a concealed

carry permit, and I keep a pistol in my car door, and every time I get pulled

over I will give my concealed carry permit and stuff to them to just let them

know yeah, I've got a gun right here. Sometimes I won't say anything, because at

this point in time I don't know what to do, right, because we see -- I forget

his name...

Ren: Philando Castile?

Joe F: Yeah, Philando Castile, who just got gunned down as a concealed carry

license holder, right.

Ren: NRA member.

Joe F: Yeah, and so it's weird. In the same vein, right, this summer I went to

Charlottesville in July when the KKK rally 01:05:00happened. And I went to

Charlottesville with Kimberly who did an interview earlier on the 8th of

September with the Alt-Right Rally there. And just even some of the different

experiences with the folks that I went with who I'm seeing these officers...

Well I'm seeing these Alt-Right folks first of all with guns and riot shields

and batons and all this stuff.

Ren: Firing in the crowds.

Joe F: Yeah, it's crazy, but I felt more nervous around the police in riot gear

who were coming towards us than I did of these Alt-Right folks, maybe even some

kind of deep-seeded view that I feel like I could get more justice say if I got

shot by an Alt-Right dude if I got shot by a police officer. It's a weird

dynamic, right.

Ren: And it's such a complicated relationship.

I was telling my wife this story and 01:06:00if I feel that way what's to say someone

the same age as my age who has a different skin color than I do, how do they

feel in this type of relationship. I think to kind of put a pin on this

conversation, I think we have to be concerned about all these things that are

happening. I think that you can also understand that yes, police have a very

difficult job and it's a hard job, but at the same time you can also be

concerned about the killing of mostly young unarmed innocent African American males.

Joe F: Right.

Ren: And I think you can play kind of both sides to that and maybe even though

this league that you started maybe that's something you were trying to accomplish.

Joe F: Yeah, definitely hoping we could at least lessen some of the issues,

right. I think it was actually two years or three years ago in Roanoke there was

a black student that was shot by a police officer. I believe he had his

headphones on when he was told to put his hands up and he ended up getting killed.

Ren: 01:07:00We do what we can, right?

Joe F: We do what we can.

Ren: I want to ask you a couple of questions. You're the coordinator for the

Cultural and Community Centers, is that your official title?

Joe F: So now I've moved into an assistant director position, so I'm now the

assistant director. So my title is assistant director of the Cultural Community

Centers, but right now I'm overseeing the new Asian Cultural Engagement Center,

so the ACE Center.

Ren: Can you talk a little about that center, the Asian Cultural, the Black

Cultural Center, the LGBTQ stuff, what that center operates in Student Affairs?

Joe F: So first of all right, the centers are a great place I think to operate

as a second home or a home away from home for our students from marginalized

backgrounds. I mentioned earlier my freshman year I was very familiar with the

Black Cultural Center as a place where I could meet other black 01:08:00folks, an easy

place to even come and process when we were experiencing different things in

class or outside of class and folks who can share that same experience with you

and process. They even have events set up or are more culturally friendly when

it comes to things, or maybe you just didn't see anybody that looked like you

for the whole day or something like that. And so in the same vein, right, so now

we have an Asian Cultural Engagement Center, and the name was something that we

just got in stone this year. Originally we were calling it Asian American and

Pacific Islander Cultural Center, but the name was just so long trying to get

the letters above the door was an issue. And then another issue in itself when

it comes to just racial categorization, right, under the term Asian American we

have hundreds of different cultures that are all being put under one umbrella

identity term.

Ren: Right.

Joe F: That all perform differently 01:09:00in different aspects, whether it's

academically or socially that could be due to the reasons why their parents

immigrated or they are refugees, or just all kind of, it's a really big pot of

different cultures and social economic backgrounds being placed under one

umbrella. So that's one of the more I think challenging aspects with it is how

do we make sure through one center that we are trying to represent as many of

these cultures as possible and making them all feel welcome. And Asian Americans

specifically have suffered from this whole idea of a model minority myth that's

been spread around that well, if we look at Asian Americans we see how

successful they are, which is a stereotype in itself that hasn't gone answered,

but why can't other minority groups be like them, right. Which you know, also

now you've got white folks who are embracing this myth and 01:10:00placing that on

Asians, and then you have other minority groups like say black people and

Hispanic folks who may also feel some type of way about this stereotype that

they start to believe it, right, or can start to believe it, and so now you have

issues between minority groups.

So, I think one of the big things is combatting those stereotypes that are very

persuasive here even in Virginia Tech's community of Asian American students.

Maybe you have students who don't want to bring a rice cooker into the

dorm...lest they seem too Asian to their white roommates, right. So just how do

we combat those small instances, not to demean it by calling them small, but how

do we combat these instances right here at the University and make sure that

these students feel welcome, that under this large umbrella term represent our

largest minority population here at Virginia Tech.

So I really appreciate that work, 01:11:00and it's funny just kind of looking at it and

recognizing that I am over the Asian Cultural Engagement Center, but clearly I'm

not Asian, right. I advise the Asian American Student Union and I'm not Asian.

And the same way I also advise the Muslim Student Union and the Jewish Student

Union and I'm neither Muslim nor Jewish. But we still have great relationships,

right. I think me and my students have a great working relationship, personal

and professional relationship when it comes to trust. I'm here, different

marginalized group, but a lot of the experiences overlap and with the work that

I do in my education I can help you all to get justice by the things that you

all experience here in the same way that I do for the black community. So we

have a great working relationship between all three groups that I work with in

the work that we do 01:12:00here in the University.

Ren: When you kind of think about your time as an undergraduate student, a

graduate student and now an employee of the University, when you look kind of

across campus what do you see that inspires you in terms of this activism that

you're kind of talking about, putting theory into practice, what are some things

that inspire you?

Joe F: Oh man, so I guess, I don't know how in-depth we can get into it about

this, so recently this whole situation that we've seen happening in the English

Department, when it comes to this teaching assistant who self-proclaimed as a

white supremacist and the stuff that they said. Being able to work with these

students who are passionate about combatting this on campus instead of you know,

I'm just here for four years, let me just graduate and look the other way. I

think the students have been 01:13:00really active this year in taking on what we can do

to combat this, what does activism look like. What are our avenues to get

justice to rectify this situation? I think that's been inspiring in itself, right.

So we have the six different communities that we represent through our... So we

have six main student organizations that we advise out of our office. We have

the Asian American Student Union, Jewish Student Union, Muslim Student Union,

Black Organizations' Council, Latino Association Student Organization, which is

LASO. We have Hokie Pride, and that's the LGBTQ, plus USCO, and these groups are

all working together, right, and that we have a shared common experience that

relates to white supremacy and how can we combat that on campus together, I

think has been great. I'm 01:14:00really proud of my students, and even the students

outside of these groups right that have been equally invested in this process,

and trying to work on it both from the administrative front and then what they

can be doing on the grassroots level I think has been really great in helping

the students. And just looking at their commitment and drive to combat the

situation I think has been really inspiring.

Ren: Right. On the flipside of that what concerns you? What worries you?

Joe F: About the students in general?

Ren: Just kind of across campus, some issues.

Joe F: That's kind of a tough question. I guess these are all my personal

opinions on stuff.

Ren: Yeah.

Joe F: I think just kind of the overall I will say 01:15:00dismissiveness when it comes

to issues of injustice or stuff that I think at other campuses would have way

more of a student activist, student rallying together type vibe. When these

kinds of things happen, versus at Virginia Tech I think a lot of the community

doesn't have that want or maybe it's just a focus, right. One of the sayings in

undergrad was stay black and on track, right, so don't let this stuff get to

you. You're only here for four years. Just get your degree and move on and don't

worry about whatever kind of negative experiences happen. But that's not leaving

it here as a better place for the folks that come after us, right. If some of

these issues, if we don't bring them up to administration how will they ever

know that that's an issue in the first place that could be impacting retention

and that kind of stuff.

So, you know, making sure that 01:16:00students feel empowered to speak up when things

happen and then what I would like to see is more involvement from the Virginia

Tech community at large, right, to come together when things happen versus you

know, not talking about it, right. Maybe one or two posts on fb, but that's the

extent to which folks are willing to go out there to do something. I think with

Ut Prosim right, our philosophy here that we may serve, and we see a lot of

service trips abroad, but not necessarily work that can be being done in

Montgomery County, right. We've got Shawsville right across... You're saying

your wife is in Shawsville Middle?

Ren: Yeah.

Joe F: Yeah, so Shawsville really in a lot of areas is really under

impoverished, right, underserved.

Ren: That's the only reason she went there, because she was at Blacksburg High

School and she left to go to Shawsville for that exact reason.

Joe F: 01:17:00Okay, yeah, and so she knows even better than I do, right. I remember

even us driving home with a student from Independent Secondary to Shawsville and

kind of seeing the area and just like we at Virginia Tech that does all these

service trips when we've got folks that need our help right next door, right.

We've got issues that we can be solving in our own community that we don't have

to spend the money on to go do foreign aid. And that's not to say anything

against foreign aid, but even in some of the things that we may be doing when it

comes to foreign aid may not be what best serves that community that we're going

out there, right. If we're going out there and telling them what we think needs

to be done or building something that they very well could have built

themselves, because maybe that's not what they needed at the time, not listening

to those voices as far as them saying what they need and that we could be doing

that same thing here.

Ren: Yeah.

Joe F: Even with the Big Event I feel like most of the projects in my undergrad

that the groups I was with went and did were largely 01:18:00superficial, and I think a

lot of students can count that as well I did something today, right. I did my

part. It was like no, you went to rake some leaves in some rich guy's lawn;

that's not doing your part. And so really focusing on when it comes to activism

here at Virginia Tech and what service looks like, you know, if we're not

serving those who need it most and we are just doing largely superficial things,

just kind of a, I don't know, a self-realization or reflection of is the work

you're doing really serving, or is it just something that makes it easy to post

on Facebook and check off a box on your resume.

Ren: Right.

Joe F: I mean if service was easy right we would all be doing it. The thing is

it's not that easy, and just seeing more folks who want to put the work in to

actually create meaningful change.

Ren: Yeah. So you were talking about Big Event, and another story that will

probably have to be redacted is a couple of years ago before we moved into our

new house we were living in Walnut Creek, which is a pretty 01:19:00nice subdivision in

Christiansburg. We were renting a house at the time because we hadn't bought our

house yet and I was in the office of the house and I look out the window and my

neighbor kind of across the way, really rich, white with a lot of money, and

people from Big Event were painting his fence.

Joe F: Yep.

Ren: It kind of really cracked me, because I remember doing a Big Event as an

undergraduate student here really when I guess it first started. And I saw that

and I was like why, you know this guy had the means to do these things, to

either do it himself or pay someone to do the fence, but he was taking advantage

of this organization. And this is nothing against Big Event, I mean I think they

do do good things, but at the same time like you're saying, we need to do more

for the communities that really need it like Shawsville and others. But yeah, I

remember they were painting his fence and I just remember I was like what in the

world? It's one of those things you 01:20:00scratch your head and it's like oh man.

So, kind of a big question here, if someone simply says the words Virginia Tech

what's the first thing you think of?

Joe F: That's a good question. This sounds really basic, I feel like the first

thing I might think of is like Tora Bridge. I did a lot of my studying there in

undergrad. That was probably my favorite place to get work done. Granted one

complaint is that when it was hot it was too cold in that building and when it

was cold outside it was too hot inside the bridge. But yeah, I always think

about the bridge. Even when I first visited Virginia Tech through the, what

program? I think it was Access Program and I did a tour of Virginia Tech with a

couple of students and we stayed up here for a while and stuff. But yeah, that

bridge that really stuck out to me. You know that's awesome. It's a bridge you

can walk through and study in over two streets. I don't know why that really

stuck 01:21:00out to me, but that's probably the first thing that I think about.

Yeah, I don't know, because I don't necessarily have this romanticized view I

guess of Virginia Tech. It is no offense to Virginia Tech, but I mean I was the

same way in high school. Maybe I'm lacking some gene for loyalty when it comes

to places where I spent my time, but I guess I feel like at every place that

I've been I was there for a reason to do work in that place. So maybe that's why

I don't necessarily have an emotional attachment.

Ren: Yeah. But I do think that in what you do, in this kind of activism that

you're doing, in a way I think you are, you may not have an emotional attachment

to it, but I think you are really serving this community well by what you do.

Joe F: I appreciate it, yeah.

Ren: And to that point, Virginia Tech's 2016 Aspire Award recipient for

Civility, so congratulations on that award.

Joe F: Thank you.

Ren: 01:22:00How did you find that out?

Joe F: Yeah, that was cool. See I feel bad because I don't want this to, I don't

know who all is going to hear this, I don't remember who recommended me at the

time anymore, so no disrespect to them. My memory is fading I guess. But no, it

was great. I appreciated being honored up there. It was bittersweet I think, and

that's not to sound like a jerk, because sometimes I think there are a lot of

folks doing a lot of hard work and activist work in the community that I don't

think is recognized. And you know part of that blame could be on me if I'm not

the one putting their names forward, right. Sometimes I am the one putting their

names forward, but you know, just what kind of work and service is recognized

and why is that work or service getting recognized. Because sometimes I think it

can be debatable 01:23:00about what's considered courageous leadership, right. I

remember my fianc√(c) Karen was with me the morning I got that award, and that

was one of the topics on our tables. We had like a conversation piece, we were

supposed to talk with the people at our tables, and one of the questions was

like what is considered courageous leadership? Folks were talking about how just

getting out of bed to face the day is courageous. And I think that a lot of

times some of these words and definitions can get watered down for the sake of

giving out awards, where because for me courageous leadership I would think that

there has to be some risk involved, right. But yeah, I guess if we get out of

bed each morning there's a risk that something bad could happen.

Ren: Yeah.

Joe F: But you know, to put yourself out there in public right, where people can

take retribution if they disagree with your views or 01:24:00something, for whatever

that is, I will say that's a courageous stance, right, or require some courage.

So, just kind of make sure that when we do these awards and stuff that we're

really doing justice by the terms that we're using and not watering them down

for the sake of giving out an award or something like that. I'm not saying that

BSA does that all the time or anything like that, but I just remember that being

one of the things that stuck out to me at that ceremony. And again, being really

grateful for the award, I love to have plaques and stuff that I can hang up with

all the Ferguson stuff and even the marches and stuff. I save all the news

articles I can if I have my picture in them or something like that. So it's

always great being recognized, but at the same time recognizing that a lot of

people who are doing more work or harder work aren't being recognized at the

same time, so just kind of keeping that in mind.

Ren: Yeah. 01:25:00The last few questions, what does Virginia Tech mean to you?

Joe F: What does Virginia Tech mean to me? That's a good question again.

[Chuckles] Oh man. I mean, I think at the end of the day it comes down to it

being a great school, right. So I had good and bad experiences here. And again,

especially when it comes to the bad experiences I always want to stress that

these experiences weren't something specific to Virginia Tech or Hokie culture

or something like that, right. I think they are definitely a larger reflection

of the society that we live in, so none of that stuff was new, but I had a great

time at Tech. If I could do it over again I wouldn't go to a different

institution. And now Tech is paying my bills, so I appreciate it.

Ren: You and me both.

Joe F: Yeah, so Tech is a great place. When I think of Virginia Tech granted I'm

still here, but I just remember it as my undergrad institution and my graduate

institution, 01:26:00where I was able to become the person that I am today I feel like

mostly through, I guess my parents and my sister and the folks that I met here

along the way. Yeah.

Ren: What would you like people to know about you?

Joe F: Um, oh that's a good question. I guess to know about me specifically, I

don't know, they should come holler at me sometime, get to know me. I'm a

friendly person. I like to talk, and in grad school I was on an assistantship

for the first year and still as a supervisor position at Center for Survey

Research. And then my second year I had a TAship through the English Department

and I worked with Dr. Klagge and I taught the recitation section for knowledge

to 01:27:00 reality.

And so I love to have, I will just say open and honest conversations, right. I'm

pretty open about my life and experiences and I won't sugarcoat it, and I don't

feel shame I guess about anything that happened, because things happen and you

know you live and you learn. I really like to share that with students when they

have something that they are struggling with or they feel some kind of way about

something or want to talk, you know, when a student is battling maybe their

inner demons and their views about religion and the life that they want to live

and if that's in contradiction. And just all those kind of conversations I try

to be open with my students that this is a place, if you feel comfortable and

need to talk about that kind of stuff I love to help you all through, because I

think we all learn from other people and other peoples' experiences. If I can

offer some kind of insight to help students in their kind of struggles or 01:28:00 things

they are having questions about, or even just want a different opinion on

something I love to do that.

So, you know, I guess what I want people to know about myself, yeah, basically

that. I'm in 140 Squires in the back of the ACE Center and my door is always

open. I love to have these conversations with students and I know the struggles

that folks have gone through, whether it's people of color or whatever and can

relate to a lot. And sometimes that makes all the difference for other folks to

be able to talk about it.

Ren: For a lot of these students knowing that there is someone they can talk to

I think is important, and I think that's probably what the Cultural Community

Center's mission is. You kind of said it earlier, you not seeing people that

look like you and this is somewhere that you can go and kind of learn and hang

out and feel a little more maybe at home. Because this campus and Blacksburg 01:29:00both can be an isolating place for some people unfortunately.

One thing I want to wrap up here with is you mentioned is Freire, I've heard it

pronounced so many different ways.

Joe F: I say Freire.

Ren: I've heard it pronounced by even scholars here like on Pedagogy of the

Oppressed, I've heard it pronounced differently, about powerful and powerless

and here's another quote, when I read that it was one of your favorite quotes I

saw this one from Chris Hayes who is a journalist and an author, says, 'We

cannot have a just society that applies the principal of accountability to the

powerless and the principal of forgiveness to the powerful.' I've already really

enjoyed that quote and talking about some of these things that you've been able

to take your experiences growing up and then take that into your education, and

then kind of blend those things together and put it out in this 01:30:00activism that

you've done at the Cultural Community Center is just inspiring man. I'm so glad

I got to meet you and talk to you. I do a lot of these interviews and I was

really looking forward to this one, so I really appreciate it.

Joe F: Yes sir. Thank you.

Ren: Is there anything else you would like to say or clear heart clear mind?

Joe F: Yeah, for all my students out there that are going to make it big one day

don't forget about me. And if you need to hire a personal consultant for six

figures I will come out and help you out. [Chuckles]

Ren: Joe Frazier, thank you so much man I really appreciate it.

Joe F: Yes sir. Thank you.

Ren: Nice talking to you man. Nice meeting you.

Joe F: The same.

Ren: Yeah.