Oral History with Shelli Fowler, November 13, 2014 (Ms2015-007)

Interview with Shelli Fowler

Date of Interview: November 13, 2014

Interviewer: Samantha Shires

Place of Interveiw: Graduate Life Center, Virginia Tech

Length: 56:30

Transcribers: Sydney J. Vaile and Samantha Shires

Samantha Shires: Good afternoon. Today's date is Thursday, November 13th, 2014.

My name is Samantha Shires and I am sitting here with-

Shelli Fowler: Shelli Fowler

SHIRES: And we're on the campus of Virginia Tech in the Graduate Life Center,

and we'll just start at the very beginning if you don't mind just stating your

name, your date of birth, and then talk to me a little bit about your upbringing

and where you were born.

FOWLER: Sure. My Name is Shelli Fowler and I was born on May 18th, 1959 in a

whole other century at this point. I was born in Inglewood in Las Angles

California and raised in the Southern California area, in the San Fernando

Valley, mostly. And grew up with parents that had migrated from the mid part and

south - so, some Missouri and Oklahoma. And they came to California in the early

50's and I have one sibling , my sister, and I 00:01:00grew up in California which was

an interesting mix to have. My mother is southern, Southern Baptist and my

father was Methodist if you had to name something. So, she had some southern

and Midwest values and my dad was not structured in that same way. And

California then had an impact so it was kind of an interesting mish-mash or mix.

SHIRES: Yeah, Southern Baptist and California, and you said in Southern

California right?

FOWLER: Yeah

SHIRES: That's interesting.

FOWLER: I think you have to work hard to find a church, she did. And it was very

odd because since religion wasn't a thorough part of the upbringing our

household, we already had this mix message. Every Sunday we were dropped off

for Sunday school and then mom usually dropped off, dad came for Easter service

and some holiday/Christmas service. 00:02:00And so you would go but your parents don't

go, which is another weird message. And it had such weird rules, like you

couldn't smoke or drink (Baptist), so there's a public sidewalk and they would

go right off the curb onto the street to have a cigarette, and you're like,

"wow, okay I'm leaning this word hypocritical. Wow. This is interesting." And so

part of my early kind of definition of self was kind of against judgment and

restrictions. You know being the help meat of a man and just really weird for

me, really weird structures that didn't feel [pause] I didn't feel normal but I

just was being eccentric being to them. Then as I grew up and started asking

questions of myself and the world, it just didn't make sense to me.

SHIRES: So you've talked about asking questions of yourself and definition of

self, and then you've talked about the various backgrounds that your parents

came from, so I'm curious as to when you were younger what did you identify

with? Did you identify when 00:03:00Southern Baptist? Did you identify as Southern or

Californian? What were those identities that you remember grappling with when

you were younger?

FOWLER: That's a really good question, and I'm not sure when I was younger I was

anything but, aware of myself as a "tomboy" and how I'd fit in in some places

and not in others, but without a kind of larger cultural critique or schema of

what that meant. I think I had to grow into that. I think my older sister was

3 years older and she joined the, I think it was called something like 'The

electric Light Company,' which is 'the light of Jesus.' And you meet Tuesday

nights and all of this stuff. I think it was expected that I would. And I tried

to go with her a couple of times when I was old enough and she was still

involved, and it was just- it was like the worse thing of junior high where it

was the 'in group' and the 'out group.' Except that it had religious texts and

reading Bible verses and blah, blah, blah and playing/singing guitars and

blah, blah, blah. And I thought it was so 00:04:00weird because the scripture I had

read, in you know vacation bible school and Sunday services, was all about this

open, non-judgmental, this way that was, wow, what a cool thing to aspire to.

But what I was doing then was this really weird social group that pretty much

pushed me away from, as I became as I said more critically engaged, the church

as a safe place. I think that I'm spiritual so I wouldn't say that I was against

God, but the organized religion thing just didn't work for me early on. And

thank goodness I was in California because I often wonder who I would be if I

grew up in small town Virginia. Now that I- you know the geopolitics here are

so different. The geography - it's beautiful but it's just so different for me.

I was lucky, probably to be in California.

SHIRES: Were you and your sister close?

FOWLER: Uh, sort of kind of, initially. But she was 3 years older which is

just old enough to not share too much of the same stuff at the same 00:05:00time. And

then when she was dating my mom would say, "Take your little sister." And, I

didn't want to go and of course she didn't want me there. So she would like

drop me off somewhere and come back to pick me up, hopefully, in a timely manner

[laughs]. So we were ok but we were very different people. We've become full

circle closer as my father's passed, but as our mom continues to age, I think

within the last 25 years, we've become a lot closer.

SHIRES: So who did you look up to or see as a role model when you were growing

up at that time?

FOWLER: Yeah, that's a really good question. I think my father in certain ways,

though it was very fraught. So I think I tried to hang on his strengths and

probably idealized him a little bit when I was young. And I think teachers. For

me school became this - what household is not slightly dysfunctional? In a kind

of dysfunctional household and the stress of that when you're little and you

don't understand - teachers - I love to read and luckily I 00:06:00think Mr. Thompson in

elementary school and Ms. Leavey in elementary school, quickly somehow that

mentoring put me on the path that - I'm first generation college, so my parents

finished high school but, and they thought in the 'American Dream' we should

go, but they had to idea what that meant and cost and all of those things. So,

I'm an 8-year BA, put yourself through school. And school was a savior in a lot

of ways.

SHIRES: So your teachers that you had. You talked about your family household,

was there a point where you realized that you're starting to identify as more

than a tomboy and had to talk to your parents? And what was that like? Or was

that just sort of this natural progression that, and a conversation never took place?

FOWLER: That's another good question. It's kind of both ends. It was a natural

progression for me, and the complete opposite for my family 00:07:00including my

sibling. So I think as I began to grow as we do and kind of aware of our

sexuality and sexual identity a little bit - I just knew that I had more fun

hanging out, playing softball and baseball with the guys. And, that was just

non normative. And there was this certain place that was all okay with my

parents. My dad has always been really pretty "you are who you are and you

should be who you are." But my mom was always, I think, a little worried about

what the neighbors thought. And that then impacted how she would engage with

us, regardless of her best intentions.

So there was this certain point, and I don't know, certainly by 10 or 11, that I

was getting the message that it was not ok any longer to be a tomboy. So, way

back before you all were around there were dress codes in even the LA city

school system where you couldn't wear pants. And this was just changing; Title

9 was a part of 00:08:00my, not childhood, but youth. So this was just coming to a head,

but you had to wear skirts and Saddle Oxfords and all these weird things. And I

remember in junior high it shifted so you could wear pants, it still wasn't

acceptable, but women, girls, students didn't have to wear a dress. And my

mother was outraged that I didn't want white nylons. And you know, the outfit

and lipstick, cause she waited. There was this thing when you turn a certain age

in teenybopper land that you're supposed to transition to this. And I just said,

"it just wasn't me!" You know, a few times my sister tried and was like, "Oh,

you'll like it!" And I felt like I was in drag! Even though I didn't know what

that meant. I was just like "it's just not me." So I began to get those messages.

And also there's a point at probably prepubescent boys where suddenly you are

not allowed to beat them in the race, throw the ball faster, shoot too many

baskets and so then that was the first time I think - I was playing basketball

and I remember 00:09:00Chucky Grandman who was one of my best friends. And he was so mad

cause he was guarding me and I was, I wasn't tall or big or anything, but I was

quick and I was just a little more coordinated than he would yet grow into be

I'm sure. And so he was so mad and he said, "You're such a fucking dyke!" And I

didn't know what that meant, but I knew that the way he said it, you know, the 'F'

word was cool, we all used the 'F' word, but what was, "uh-uh I am not!" That's

all I knew to say and I knew that was bad. And that's the point where it

became, like there's this way you should not be that has to deal with your

sexual identity, who you are, all of who you are.

SHIRES: Is that your first remembered experience of that word as well?

FOWLER: Yeah, yeah and I didn't even know what it meant. And we didn't have

Wikipedia [laughs] so, I was just like I know that's not good.

SHIRES: Did you ask mom?

FOWLER: I think I asked my sister, I knew not to ask my mom. And the worse part

about that is that was the age at which my sister probably related to my mom,

you know, as I said we're kind of dysfunctional, not open enough in the house and

whatever, so. I think everyone was then worried I would 00:10:00become one. And was

going to try to fix it, which was a really awkward, uncomfortable place to be in.

SHIRES: You referred to yourself as a tomboy-

FOWLER: Yeah.

SHIRES: Do you still feel like a tomboy? Do you feel like that word is

appropriate to identify with or to describe you as?

FOWLER: I guess not anymore. For me it was, it was a very way of a girl child

being inside your body, being comfortable with your physical body. Which I know

through, not only because of terrible things we have with obesity in our

American culture, but sedentary behaviors that play 90 minutes and all that

stuff. What a fabulous thing it was more normative then we had recess. This was

when you didn't have SOLs and teaching to the test. And, you had a kind of

spectrum through k through 12 of the full range of music. You had music class,

you had art class, and you had PE. So you got a sense on the playground of 00:11:00 the

space to discover your physical ability. And that's a great gift because you

walk strong in a way. Even when you're- going to college I was small, I was

never a big person. But you know you had this, 'don't mess with me' thing you

can do because you feel like you know what your body does, you can trust your

body, you're connected to your body. And I've had friends for whom that's not

the case, they're just not physical. I don't know if they trace it back to not

being encouraged to do sports when they were young or whatever.

But for me it's a youth term. I don't know if it still comes with the stigma it

did back in the late 60s that it did for me growing up, or if it's a cool

thing. I guess it depends on the context and the family.

SHIRES: We have talked a lot about school and the impact of that, and now you're

at Virginia Tech and you work for a school. So, can you walk me through how you 00:12:00got here, your journey to Virginia Tech? I am sure it is very interesting so I am

excited to hear it.

FOWLER: Well I think everyone's journey is interesting, truly. We probably don't

listen enough to each other's stories in order to understand, and narrative's

very powerful. So, yeah. Odd since I am first generation college and there was

an emphasis on doing well in school, and as I said I had mentors that really

helped that because my parents both were more "You do well by complying"-- So,

not really exploring your curiosity intellectually. There would be a bound.

"Well you shouldn't- that's a question you don't need to worry about or answer."

So it was that kind of at home. Thank goodness for me that was disrupted very

gently in school, so I think I became someone who was comfortable in school and

kept going.

As I said, I graduated from high school when I was 17. I started at a young age

and then they did 00:13:00this mashing together of used to be 4A and 4B 5A, they mashed

us all together. So they had all these tests you took and they either held you

back or put you forward. And the hardest thing about it for me was that I was

this little runt. I was like, I turned sideways and I disappeared. I was this

little tiny, skinny, short thing and so then I'm younger than everybody. So when

I graduated from high school at 17, it took me a long time to turn 16. [And

People would say], "Hey can you drive tonight when we go?" And it's like "but

I, No" "Can't you get the car?" "No, can't get the car because I don't even

have a- I'm not old enough." So it was just that kind of trauma.

I think I always felt outsider in ways that at the moment, I'm sure were

uncomfortable, I don't remember ever being really traumatized by them. I kept a

series of - of course, I was going to be a writer so I had a series of, from age

8 on these notebooks and stories and what not. So maybe that was an outlet.

Cause I don't remember having a lot of social 00:14:00trauma, but always feeling like an

outsider and didn't fit in. At some point that became a strength. Like, the norm

was kind of boring, and I felt really delighted that I wasn't normal in every

way, that I had to fight to get out of that.

SHIRES: It drove you a little bit.

FOWLER: Yeah. So, school became something, even though at 17 I - My sister had in

some ways disappointed my parents by being in love with the high school football

player, quarterback, who was a year younger than she. So she graduated, and

instead of going off to college, which they were adamant we should do, went to a

local community college to stay close to Mike. Of course it didn't go anywhere,

but she ended up on a different track. So then the both pressure and opportunity

came to me.

It was my first real discovery of the impact of class status. My parents, my dad

had a white-collar 00:15:00job they had inched their way into, with a lot of debt, into

the lower part of the middle class. I wasn't conscious of that, really, except

that everyone gets Keds, and you get the like, JC Penny knock offs, and you

don't know why, but, aside from those kinds of details, I wasn't aware. College

was the first time I was aware.

So, in applying to places, I got into Berkeley and UCLA, and Reed, and

Northwestern and I wanted to leave California because I was just that kind of

independent person, and as I said, slightly dysfunctional family I just wanted

to go away and explore college. So, didn't. They couldn't afford out of state,

they didn't probably know that, but when you're a young, immature 16-17 year

old, and you've been told "we'll send you where you want to go, you want to go

to college" and then they can't, and at that point it wasn't even the kind of

loan system we have now. They didn't have the plus loans where you can

supplement, you had to have financial aid, and it was very difficult to 00:16:00do. Of

course, state institutions in California were very cheap back then too. Our

taxes paid for, if you were in the CSU or UC system.

I wanted to go to Berkeley, which would have been Northern California. And my

mother had Peoples Park and sex, drugs and rock and roll happened at Berkeley,

and of course it didn't happen at UCLA, so I would have to go there, and it was

just over the hill. And I'd been, I grew up, in parts of LA and what we did in

high school was go to the Roxy Theater and do things, all the movies.

Everything's there, so that's not appealing, like coming from a small place in

California, going and living there.

So I went, but I was 17. My parents paid for the first quarter. I lived in a

dorm, which I had insisted on. Yay! But I was quick doing work study, I was like

washing the dishes, in [Sprow?] Hall. I was in the cafeteria and you see the

underbelly of students with more privileges than yourself. And I liked school,

but it was huge. And, I was only 00:17:0017, I was madly in love then with a boy thing

back in the valley. And so, at that point, I wasn't focused on school and they

had a financial crisis in the family, so they didn't pay for the second quarter.

And all those little savings from all your jobs you had when you were mowing

lawns and babysitting all the way up was depleted with one quarter, actually two

quarters. And so what I did, because I was, I don't know, having my dharmabum

rebel phase, was I wasn't engaged in the intellectual, I was exploring being

almost an adult--not really an adult, but you think you are at that age-- and

quit going to class, and didn't drop any courses and they give you Fs, which is

very rude, [laughter], and so my first quarter was fine, and then I ended on

probation at the end of the Spring with a 1.2 GPA.

In that session, I decided to do all kinds of crazy things. I had my first

lesbian- 00:18:00I wouldn't say relationship- lesbian affair, with a woman on the

basketball team. We'd gone out, and I was so- I think all the homophobia that we

internalize, or I internalize, most of us in my position internalized at some

point certainly wasn't worked through, so I was both very engaged with Katie and

also like, "I'm not that. Thank you, but I'm not that." And so, immediately, I

think as some unconscious compensation, I was one of the first employees at an

In and Out Burger that first came to the Valley. I don't know if you have ever

had an In and Out burger. Store number 18, way back in the day.

SHIRES: Is there an employee of the month photo on the wall somewhere?

FOWLER: I don't know if there's a photo on the wall, I am the first, fourth man,

ever female, of In and Out Burger, which is like, for a long time when I was in

California, it was like my claim to fame.

SHIRES: So you are probably on In and Out's Wikipedia somewhere.

FOWLER: I might be. David [Asente?] 00:19:00is someone who knows that history. Most

people in Ritchie Snyder's family have died, who owned it. A lot of the general

managers I worked for are now retired. That also empowered me in ways, because

that was before I went off to college. It's where I met David, and he was a very

good friend, and it's also because I went and worked so hard there. You're with

guys, in a box, it's about this big. It was a drive through version before they

had all the walk-ins, and I learned so much about swearing like a sailor. I

had never heard before. And your behavior as a girl, because there were two of

us that were working in 1974 there, and you either cried when they did all of

this "cheesecake in the front lane" kind of thing and teasing they would do, or,

and that wasn't my mode, crying. I would be like "Woah, beefcake in the back

lane, Lisa come check this out, oh my 00:20:00god, look at the abs he doesn't have a

shirt on." You know, I didn't care that I wasn't attracted to the person, and

you had to fight back. Actually our journeys make us who we are. It was a good

thing for me because I don't know how long it would have taken, probably much

longer, for my upbringing.

I ended up at 17, David came over and I rode on the back of his Norton 850 on

Pacific Coast Highway instead of going to class. Really, I tried to fall in love

with him. I think, if I look back on it now, I was working really hard to do

that. I also though, I've been married in my life, I also think there was a part

of me, moreso younger than I think now, who I was falling in love with a person.

So, it could be male or female, even though I think I preferred females more.

But it really, if the person was unique, it wasn't like I wasn't attracted at

all to a physical body. I also think ever since I was a little wingnut growing

up in relationships, love 00:21:00relationships with others, I don't really separate the

person, inside is what's appealing instead of the external, and then you try to

like them. I just, didn't go that route. Because I never felt like those

externals anyone looked at on me, so it was easy to probably not do that.

Anyhoo- wow, I'm getting off track. You wanted tangents; there are some tangents

for you. I feel like this is like - do I have to write a check? Like, are you

guys licensed?' [laughter].

So I ended up leaving school, and my parents found out that I had left school,

not because I told them, because I knew on some level I would disappoint my

father in ways I wasn't ready to deal with and my mother was so judgmental, oh

my, being not married and being in any kind of relationship with anyone, was a

sin against God. So you can imagine how well this relationship had gone on

[laughter]. It's never worked itself out. 00:22:00So I left school, disappointed everyone, I ended up being brought home

temporarily. On my eighteenth birthday, they forced me to come home. And I was

kind of hanging out with David and still had the dorm room, even though I wasn't

going to class. I pulled out of school, went back to the valley, and instead of

living with him (cause they would have me arrested), was at home til my 18th

birthday (which was at that point about a month and a half away). They went up

to see my sister in Northern California, who had recently gotten married and

moved up north. I packed two suitcases; clothes in one, and my books in another.

And these suitcases, they didn't have wheels back in the day, and left.

And so, moved out at 18 never to return to home. Really fraught- about four

years of really not engaging with parents. More dysfunction, because it's not

like they just said "we're not talking to you" and it was always split, it was

this horrible drama back and forth of a family that probably doesn't know how to

openly deal with 00:23:00someone who is different. So just disrupting the status quo.

I ended up going to school on my own, thank goodness the CSU system, when I went

back that fall, it was like 75 bucks a semester and books. So, as a California

resident, you could go to school, I worked full time and went to school like

12-16 units full time. And would withdraw when the waitress job, the hours

changed I had to go over here, change something else. So it took me 8 years. I

can't tell you why I stuck with that, except, some part of me was probably drawn

to the teaching and learning part, and certainly as a learner. And, when I

looked around, aside from a brief stint I did in corporate before going back to

grad school, it just didn't engage me. I didn't feel my fit. You know, Ken

Robbins is talking about being in you element. What was I supposed to be doing?

It wasn't that.

This gets meshed with my sexuality and 00:24:00discovery, because I think I pretty much

put on hold. I was in so much distancing from my family just from having- After

I was 18, I lived with David, much to their chagrin. Trauma. And so that alone

was bad, and because I was in a relationship, I was just in denial about other

parts of my sexuality. I ended up, through that break up, and then marrying a

musician, briefly, and I think that marriage was about so that I could have this

calm time. That didn't last long, of course, because, you know, I wasn't where I

was supposed to be. clearly.

And I ended up moving after that divorce. I was 21 or 22; so I did all of this

in a jam-packed little period. Too young to be doing any of it, no doubt. But I

moved up to San Jose State to finish up in the north. My sister lived in

northern California. 00:25:00So I stayed with her for a couple of weeks, found a job and

an apartment, and got back in school with all of those credits that transferred

because of CSU, yay! In that day, it was easy to do, and kept back on the track

as an English major.

And, it was then that, solo, I probably had that place you have to explore who

you are again with a kind of reflection that I had just put off. And was again

thriving in school, and not finding the work world anything but taxing. And

began to think, I could teach - what a great gig! You get paid to talk about

books with people. Wow! And first [I] probably would have done K through 12

certification. Ended up in what was my senior year, the last part of it, working

in the English department office at San Jose State.

It was there I met the first partner, the first woman that I fell in love with.

And for me at that point, at age, what was I, 00:26:0024 I think then? That was when I

felt like I fell in love for the first time. So for me, even though I think my

continuum is very Jungian about who I can love, that felt like I'd come home in

a certain way. And so, she was in her Masters, I'd just finished up my

undergraduate bachelor's degree. I'd been typesetting at Runner's World on the

night shift, going to day classes, which was such a treat, instead of all night

classes. And switched that, quit finally working the night shift and worked in

the English Department office full time.

And that's when I discovered graduate school. She was a Masters degree student.

And I was like, "I'm First Generation College." Getting the bachelor's was like

ahhh. And I was taking that little time off to go to school, what are you going

to do? Through her I thought, "Oh. Graduate school, what's that? Maybe I can do

that." She was not first generation 00:27:00college; she was finishing a Masters and

applying to PhD programs. Just by luck, and a simple twist of fate, rather than

start there - if I hadn't met her I might have ended up in the Masters program,

finished an MA, gone to teach at a community college, which at that point, you

could do as a career and probably get tenure without a doctorate.

Instead, she's applying nationally, and so, I started applying nationally. Now

all of this is, again- my parents I tried to tell, I told my sister and she got

very homophobic initially and freaked out, and said she would still love me even

though I was a sinner. I was like, "Oh, wow. That little Junior High group

really stuck with you, didn't it? wow okay." I tried to tell my dad, and he

said, "You know I love you, I don't want to have this conversation." I knew not

to go near my mom.

Coming out was not something except [what] I did to myself. I tried with my

family. Built, what queers often do, an alternative family. In San Jose, it's is

near San Francisco, I had 00:28:00two. I had a professor who was an out lesbian and she

had a partner on campus and one of the reasons why I'm here doing this is

because what a fabulous role model [she was] to me. When no one was going to

tell me that was okay. My family never said "you should explore who you are."

None of that. So you get to see this very smart, very happy, very centered and

more normal than my family when I compare it, couple doing what they're supposed

to do as academics.

So that probably made it possible and I applied to grad school. We would have

ended up at Penn or Texas. We ended up at the University of Texas at Austin.

That was a great journey for me because I started and ended up with my PhD

there. It had great programs, great discovery of femme lit that was coming into

a recognized discipline, and I learned a lot. It helped being queer, because the

ways in which you're othered as being queer; even though I have race privilege

and all kinds of other things that make me not attentive 00:29:00to difference and

social stratification issues enough, that really helped me, through great

mentoring I had there, understand to be a white academic in an Ethnic Lit field,

and what kind of responsibility that brought. You weren't just doing John Dunn,

or Shakespeare, or Milton. It should be the same because as a white girl in the

20th century, what in the heck would I know about Milton? But culturally, that

all gets eroded because of racial difference.

And too many people I watched as colleagues were very upset when students of

color at UT Austin when we taught would be upset that they were their Ethnic Lit

teacher. Because in a sea of whiteness, that's who I should get for Chicano Lit

or Chicana or Latino, and it makes sense. If you understand race politics in

academe or US culture, you can't take that personally. You have to understand,

you have to be part of the solution, not part of the 00:30:00 problem.

I also had the benefit of watching colleagues-- a diverse race and group of

colleagues--in Ethnic Lit as a grad student and figured that out. Which helped a

lot, and as I said, good mentoring, even when [Eva Luviano?] was my Diss Chair,

she was fabulous to push me further and all of that. Again, being queer, I was

out as a graduate student, but not to my family. Out on Fridays, Yam Queen,

softball, the whole American Studies, History and English departments. We

'owned' the softball field Friday nights in Austin. Austin was a great city back

then. It was pre-Bush; Richards was the governor. Fabulous. Michael Dell had

come in computers and made it big. It was like this fabulous overgrown Berkeley

in the middle of Austin. And it took a day to drive to any border, and you

didn't want to leave. You should just stay in Austin, cause, I've driven out

there, and it was a lot scarier than Austin was then.

So that was a fabulous time, what a nice 00:31:00gift of luck to end up in that

community. I also went through in that point-- Kate ended up breaking my heart.

Doing the things that a betrayal that could have been for a straight couple.

Which was so odd to me, because I was thinking, "No, wait! We're queer, we're

lesbians, we can do this differently. We're not stuck in the patriarchy in the

same way!" Well, yeah, we just do the same betrayals.

So it was very hurtful, and also great because since I had followed Kate, she's

two years older, and I followed her to grad school, and she was not first gen,

there were so many ways that I relied on her too much, I guess. It was a great,

ultimately, time to find my own footing, and who I was as an academic. And I had

this crisis point where I thought I'll go drive a UPS truck. They make more than

an English professor does, and who wants to write this dissertation anyway?

Inside academia you get a little insulated in ways that you are being 00:32:00institutional. I had a colleague in grad school that said "When you are an

academe, you are institutionalized. You don't have a white jackets, but it is

the same kind of, yeah." She also used to say it's like a second adolescence.

It's like you're thirteen, you know enough where you want to be on your own and

do whatever, but you have this structure that says 'Not yet youngster.'

I think it kept me sane to know I could go drive a UPS truck or FedEx truck. And

that's what helped me as a first gen know I don't have to do this, and you

people are kind of messed up too, and I'm not buying into everything here. But I

could focus on the work, so that was fabulous. I became convinced in that period

of time that what I was supposed to do was be a teacher, an academic, and I

didn't think I would put up with the k12 restrictions, even at that point.

That's pre-teaching-to-the-test craziness, pre-Margaret Spellings Commission

craziness. And I also thought that 00:33:00there wasn't enough chance for scholarship in

the way that my research informs my teaching and vice versa. I'm not sure that I

could keep that up on the k12 mode.

So I jumped in, and was lucky to get a job. Again, probably timing and the year

I came out, I don't mean came out sexually, I mean as a PhD candidate, that

there was a huge need for my area. I had about 26 interviews in MLA, and ended

up with three job offers and navigating what I should do and how exciting. It's

such a not-reality now, academic job market, economic market period. But, I was

hired at Washington State University as a PWI. It was a small town, smaller than

Blacksburg/Christiansburg, little Pullman, and isolated by the Cascades from

Seattle, Spokane's up the road. Indigo girls played there once. I 00:34:00mean you don't

get any - It's just crazy.

So I thought, I've grown up in big cities, this is a way- you're not run going

to run from yourself on this one. I'm going solo. I had kind of had a

relationship post-Kate, but was not going to be committed so I could have my

career. I went solo, and again, really nice opportunity, because young

professional, tenure-track, I needed to focus on that anyway. It's a crazy busy

time. You can't hide from yourself. It wasn't Austin. There wasn't Sixth Street

to be like "Nah, I'm not gonna write that chapter, I'm going to go down to Sixth

Street and go to Antone's and listen to Jazz." No, can't do that.

So I really had another growth period, and period, for me, of acceptance.

Because see, my family is still not-- my sister has come around and loves me in

spite of myself, so I have some relationship there, but my parents don't know.

And so, so much of my personal life was not-- I didn't bring Kate home when I

was 4 years with her to Christmas. No holiday when I went home, her family was 00:35:00fine. I was their daughter-in-law, but not in mine. So, that was another nice

period to really find my center and who I was and get comfortable with that.

I ended up through one relationship that wasn't meant to be, a female. Then, I

met my partner who is now my partner. Who is twenty years my partner on December

2 this year. This is amazing to me, only because I was in three of four years of

serial monogamy, it was a pattern. I was straight, queer, whatever. The notion

of that kind of commitment with someone who you can love that deeply is just,

you know, you like who they are when they walk in the world. There's integrity,

and just everything about them. I didn't think it existed, and it's not because

I didn't have it, I just didn't think it existed. Finding that with Karen, my

partner, was fabulous.

I got tenure there, I was a joint 00:36:00appointment in Ethnic Studies and English, and

I directed American studies for a while and really had rich and robust

colleagues and grad students that I worked with. I really liked it there aside

that it was a little small with wheat fields in Washington State. And then,

Karen, in 2001 I guess, she was wanting to leave the grad school because a

president retired and a new president came in, with whom, she did not share any

kind of ideological or academic plan for the future. So, she decided to look and

ended up here in 2002 with a job offer at Virginia Tech as Vice President for

Graduate Education and Dean of the Graduate School. And I said, okay. When she

got the offer she asked, Marc McNamee was one year in as the provost. He was

from UC Davis, 00:37:00might have something to do with it, I don't know, and he said

"What can we do to get you here?" at that point of negotiation. And she said "I

do have a dual career couple policy. I have a partner who is also an academic.

He said yes we do, which, actually, they had kind of a de facto process for

straight, white, Christian, and married. You couldn't even be - you had to have

that thing there to be legally able to. It was a de facto policy exercised willy

nilly rather than a real policy.

He said yes, and he said "what does your partner do?" And she said "she is an

associate professor in English and Ethnic Studies." And he said "Great, have her

send me her CV." There was not really an Ethnic Studies department; there was I

think, it might have been called Africana Black Studies, it wasn't in SOE yet.

There was an English 00:38:00Department. I came out to interview. Karen had signed a

contract; I had an offer to be an associate prof. He was funding a line to the

college as an accommodation. I insisted that I go meet these colleagues and see

if it's a fit for them and for me. They look at my tenure materials and I

interview here for a couple of days. On that trip, we were looking for houses.

They voted on my tenure and said "Yes, we would like her to join us." We buy a

house. The Board of Visitors approves all personnel hires. Their next meeting

was June in 2002.

In the interim, Karen received a homophobic email, and that same email went to

four members of the BOV-- a very select four who were conservative and

religious. The rector and three others. It was one of those awful homophobic

emails. It was sent by a re-mailer, so 00:39:00although I think they tried, you could

not easily trace it. It said-- I forget his last name--Danny-- the guy who was

killed in 2000 at the park in Roanoke. I forget his last name, but Danny was, I

believe, his first name. It sent a little link to that story and said that this

would happen to you if you come here. We didn't take it seriously, and Karen is

wiser than I; I think I got more upset about it than she did. She blew it off.

She doesn't invest energy in "that's ridiculous, I'm not empowering it by

investing energy."

Well, we didn't know at that point that it had been sent to the BOV, so the BOV

goes into one of their sessions. They do a closed session for four hours, which

is unprecedented. And apparently, there was much debate and discussion. There

were nine personnel hires to be 00:40:00approved, and the Board of Visitors here just

rubberstamps hires. So they approved all of them but mine. Karen, of course,

would also be on that list. When I got a call from Karen, I think it was June. I

was on a nine-month, so I had gone on a long bike ride and I had come in there

was a message from Karen saying "Don't leave the house I'm on the way home." I

was like oh my God, what's happened? Lucinda Roy in the English Department Chair

at that point called me very upset. So I'm starting to hear from her. She's

crying and she's saying "I can't believe they've done this." I was like, "Did

what? What's going on?"

Karen gets home and she tells me what has happened, and I have to admit, that my

first response was "WTF? We like our community; I love my academic colleagues

here, why are we going to the South?" She rightly so said "they've just drawn a

line in the sand, and we have to now"-- and she'd already had a response from the 00:41:00provost, someone who's no longer here named Megan [Bollerin?] in the Department

of Education was one of the immediate people in Women's Studies who contacted us

and said "We've just heard, this is not Virginia Tech." So it wasn't like solo

we decided to march in, we had this immediate support. And a really fabulous

moment in Virginia Tech's history, because that allowed-- I think it was one of

those catalysts, who knew?-- that could help the university community push

Virginia Tech forward into the 21st century (though we were already in the 21st

century) just, really move forward in ways, certainly its community, all of it

is community, aside from a very small, powerful minority, wanted it to.

So she said we have to go, and I said, "you're right. We have to walk our talk."

You can't have diversity as one of the things you do in academe, and then be

like, "yeah, not doing that." And we also had the privilege to do it. She had her 00:42:00job. I was granted from my college a year leave without pay from my tenure so I

could go back. And when we came, yeah we had this house we just bought, but I'm

like "yeah, we are not staying here. We will do what we're going to do, and then

we will either go back or move on to something else." Because, really? It was a

really interesting moment for me because it was one of those things where Karen

and I were about ten years in, and either that breaks you up, because it's such

a rupture to your professional, personal life, or it makes you solid as a rock.

And I guess with an anniversary coming up, thank goodness it really solidified

our respect for each other professionally and personally on all kinds of levels.

We came and it was a fabulous moment, ultimately. It was, I'm sure, hard on

Karen because she's having to work as a 00:43:00colleague on the upper admin level not

knowing who had said "yeah we don't want 'those kind' here" and who was

supportive. Now, many of her colleagues would say directly that they were

outraged, but there was also an administrator, who will remain nameless, who

used that as rhetoric and, I think, would have been happy if she left.

There was a Southern spin on it for me that was cultural. California people were

mostly live and let live, or tell you to the face. You just have a sense where

things are. Here, people will smile at you and say it was a pleasure to meet

you, and then turn around and say [whispers] "how come they're in here?" It took

me a while to figure that out, because I would kind of go on the hand shake

first and then realize, ok, maybe not.

But, the nice thing was that so much of the community came forward, and the very

nice thing that happened, if it had just been our case 00:44:00as a non-federally-

protected group, discrimination. Because AUP, Association of University

Professors, the ones who I think have been working with poor Steve Salaita at

this moment with another issue of academic freedom, they contacted us. We went

up to DC, and they wanted us to sue. Not on discrimination, because we're not a

federally protected group, but that it was breech of contract. I had a contract

signed, I had an office in Shanks, I had a teaching schedule, and I had

equipment ordered-- all of that had been done. So we held off on that because

the community was working with us, if you do that you have to leave. And then

you're this "we will stand up for truth, justice, and the American way." And it

should be reputation. You're really going to be an activist first? We were put

in that position rather unintentionally. That just felt a little too all about

us in ways we weren't comfortable, and because of the community.

What had happened 00:45:00is, under the leadership, at this point, of Rector John

Rocovich, what he had done, and it was a good thing he did it, in this desire,

somehow to change the landscape of Virginia Tech, without, in my opinion, the

cooperation and understanding of the community for which he thought he spoke.

They decided that affirmative action was no longer necessary in any admissions

policy. It was a level playing field. There would be no way-- there was not a

quota system. There hasn't been, except when Reagan instituted, affirmative

action, but whatever. There is a complex math that you get points for all of the

stuff you do. So he said race could not be a factor in that.

They had a speaker on campus that previous spring who was anti-logging. It was

an environmental activist that had come, and that was 00:46:00irritating to one of the

BOV group who was a logging person, his millions were made that way, I don't

know. So, you couldn't have anyone come to campus to speak until the Board

approved it. So that became a rule. They took out sexual orientation, which was

in a policy under McComas , when it had been approved. It wasn't something that

people knew but when you looked in the record, indeed, the Virginia Tech

anti-discrimination policy included a sexual orientation-- at that point, the

phrase was in there. They removed that.

This brought together, as one might imagine, a bunch of irritated, angry, upset

groups. So a very fragile coalition, and coalitions are always fragile. By their

nature, they come together and are a united front for a short amount of time.

Because it's not like the queer community here was not necessarily not racist.

The Black Student Alliance wasn't necessarily open to 00:47:00its queer membership. It's

not like it was some wonderful, evolved group, but the forces came together. The

local and regional and national NAACP got involved, it became this wonderful

event where Virginia Tech, according to people who were here before us, said,

"my goodness, I haven't seen this much activism since there was an anti-Vietnam

War rally before it was shut down."

It was very wonderful to be a part of and watch members across a whole spectrum

of the Virginia Tech community find their voice about what they wanted the

institution to be. And that was just amazing, and it is why we are still here.

Because, that moment was successful, it didn't seem posturing it really became

more inclusive. The initial Principles of Community was done in 2005. It became

this dual 00:48:00career couple hires is an official policy. You can come up to HR when

you are applying to find out how to explore opportunities for a partner, no

matter if you are same sex, married, or not married, straight, doesn't matter,

dual career.

SHIRES: Did you realize in the moment that was going to have such an impact,

that what you were fighting for was going to cause this sort of snowball effect?

FOWLER: No. In fact, if you had asked me in 2002, I would have thought this was

a short stay. And I don't know where Virginia Tech will go after us, but we're

going to do what we can here with this community, and we won't be here.

SHIRES: What are the major changes that you have seen? Positive and/or negative

since you guys fought that fight.

FOWLER: Positive: policy change, with inclusivity being something that was

redefined, and became policy now. The Principles of Community was more of a

gesture that hung on every wall in every room, 00:49:00but it didn't have accountability

attached to it. Those kinds of things are still in process and still changing.

But I think we watched the constituents on the Board change. The way my contract

was fixed changed, it rectified the situation. It was a lot of work on campus,

and strategizing. And, everyone in my discipline started writing. MLA was

sending letters to Governor Warner, President Steger, and John Rocovich, as BOV

rector. They were inundated. There was something I think that Megan Boller

started called Justice for Tech. It was a Gmail. People would send us stuff; she

would bring me packets. She would be like, "Look! I'm taking these and we're

mailing the paper versions too!"

So there was this moment where at Tech, Chronicle of Higher Education came out

and interviewed and it was this big thing is Tech going to move forward or not?

I am sure there are faculty members on the faculty Senate, which passed a

resolution in '03, 00:50:00that my tenure case-- you cannot have board members that are

not faculty members overturning a faculty decision [whispers] like tenure

appointment, you can't do that. I'm sure some of them, if you ask them on the

street, or interviewed them, they would be homophobic. But you do not overturn a

faculty decision.

All of those factors came together and that made positive. That I think has been

leverage. We had good hires. I am not a kind of data analytics person who would

say that there's a cause and effect relationship between that moment and

President Tim Sands. But we have dual career couple hire at the head of the

home. We have Dr. President Timothy Sands, and Dr. Laura Sands. Oh my goodness!

Their platform, their ways in which they engage, President Sands has already

made a change on diversity. At so many institutions, diversity and Office of

Diversity becomes like 00:51:00a letterhead on stationary, and it's not empowered to do

real change. That's been true here at moments; it is not unique at Tech. I think

there was a movement in review before he got here, and he very quickly looked at

that as something he values. So he made that change, as a brand new in the door

president. That's hope. I think that change is not one step and off we go! There

are steps back. At this place in my twelve years has changed tremendously.

SHIRES: You talked earlier about when you were in your undergrad in Southern

California and the mentors you had. Do you see yourself as a mentor now?

FOWLER: Yes, I do both consciously, and hopefully, by being true to myself and

making good decisions at some points also in ways I had role models. I hope that

I pay forward in that way. Mentoring is something we should do more of in 00:52:00academe. Mentoring is not 'there is a knowledge expert who is a mentor and

mentees are just like empty vessels that you tell what to do.' It's really a

kind of bi-directional process where undergraduates mentor me.

I taught undergraduates in the Fall of 2012 in a living learning community and

I'm in contact with a handful of them now. I did a DIGS Community Student Group

with some last year. It was fabulous, I learned so much from them. The graduate

students both formally on dissertation committees, and informally. That process

is very rewarding. God, we need more of that.

SHIRES: Can you speak briefly on the social life in Austin? What's the social

life in Blacksburg like for you? Do you feel like there needs to be

improvements? Do you like it?

FOWLER: [Laughs] Wow, that's a very good question and I'm certainly not an 00:53:00expert on that. I look at a distance as someone who is pretty ensconced in a

relationship, and we both work a lot. And we're both more - you wouldn't know this

from this interview-- but private and with each other than we are social beings

that need to go out all the time. So I don't know, except I do know from

students with whom I interact, even for a college town, it doesn't have as many

opportunities to be of diversity across the whole spectrum. From just Spoken

Word Night, that's next to the night of the DJ spinning, it's just a whole

spectrum of opportunities as much as some students with whom I've interacted

come from other places, not as small, this may look like a big town, but if they

come from a more urban area, it's odd to them. So you have student groups,

there's a lot of places where you can find a niche, 00:54:00and yet I'm not sure if I

came here as an undergraduate that I would accept my luck and bump into the

opportunities that helped me explore.

SHIRES: I know it's hard to cover a lifespan in such a short amount of time, but

is there anything you would like to add or wish I would have asked? That you

just want to end on? Is there a legacy that you want to leave behind at Tech? I

mean you already have, whether you realize it or not, but-

FOWLER: That's a great question. I've talked a lot so you are a great

interviewer. What legacy? I hope that I can individually continue to pay it

forward and learn. The thing I always hated most on any decade in my life was

where you hit 00:55:00that stagnant stale 'That's not the way we do it here,' or, 'When

I was your age we...'

SHIRES: That uphill in the snow both ways kind of thing

FOWLER: Yeah I am a glass half full. Paula Ferry is someone who impacts the work

that I do. It's about a kind of critically engaged optimism that history, life,

society is not determined for you. You're a change agent. So you either find

ways to accept that agency, and Margaret Mead, a small handful can make a change

and that's what you do at various opportunities. And you stay with that. The

worse thing I fear is 'Back in the day when...' and then I'm some other person. We

change, but if it was a contradiction, 00:56:00that's what I fear most. So my legacy

hopefully will be to keep being. If I can as an academic, my work is to

certainly keep learning, but also to find ways to open the space for

others--learners, colleagues, everybody-- to be empowered to be on their

journey. Because I don't think we do that well enough in academia, and we

should. That's what our rhetoric says we do, but...

SHIRES: Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. We appreciate it!