Oral History with Essex Finney, March 26, 1999 (Ms2003-011)

Kennelly: This is Tamara Kennelly we're at the sound booth in the media

building and it's March 26, 1999 I would like to start off with some background.

Where are you from?

Finney: Originally?

Kennelly: Yes.

Finney: I'm from Powhatan, Virginia and the small community of Macon near the

Powhatan courthouse in Powhatan County.

Kennelly: That's where you grew up?

Finney: Yes.

Kennelly: What about your family?

Finney: My mother was Etta Burton also from Powhatan County. My father is Essex

"Eugene" Finney, Sr. We grew up on a farm in Powhatan, my grandfather's place.

Born in 1937, and 00:01:00went to high school and elementary school in the county. I'm

not sure how much you want to know about my family simply ask me.

Kennelly: What kind of farm was it?

Finney: This was a general-purpose farm. We grew tobacco, wheat, corn, hay and

we raised cattle, pigs, chickens and horses. It was a general purpose farm at

that time, about 200 acres. My grandfather purchased it in the early 1900s by my

grandfather. My father, Eugene, was born lived there all of his life, and I grew

up there. Kennelly: So this was the family farm?

Finney: The family farm, that's correct.

Kennelly: How many children are in your family?

Finney: I'm the only child, but my father had, I think, 13 (siblings), so there

were many aunts and uncles

Kennelly: Did you help with the farm work?

Finney: Yes, that was a very interesting experience and I enjoyed it. It was something 00:02:00to give you a work incentive and to help you learn to accept responsibility. It

was a very good opportunity as a child.

Kennelly: Did you start helping when you were young?

Finney: Yes, as soon as I could work. I guess one of the things I should explain

is why I came to VPI because that pertains to my farm background. When I was a

young person growing up on the farm after elementary school, and beginning high

school, we had horses and mules to do work. That was labor intensive. While I

was in high school we acquired a tractor. In fact, our neighbor earlier had

acquired a 00:03:00tractor, one of those Ford tractors with the implements which you

could lift up and transport. It was of great interest to me because it reduced

the amount of hard labor and enabled you to do a large amount of work with not

much hard labor involved. Not only did I farm my grandfather's farm with the

tractor, but my neighbor who owned a tractor encouraged me and asked me to help

do his farming. So with a tractor and all the implements that go along with it,

you could farm two or three small farms at that time. So that's why I had an

interest in Agriculture because I grew up on a farm. I then became interested in

agricultural engineering because of the equipment involved, the mechanization,

which was a phase of 00:04:00engineering; I wanted to develop tractors and equipment,

manufacture, and market them.

Kennelly: So you were doing quite a bit of work if you were actually doing your

family's farm and your neighbor's? I mean, you weren't just going out to gather

eggs in the morning.

Finney: Oh no, it was plowing, disking, planting crops, and

harvesting. Even after school in the evening I would go work on other farms. For

example there was a family about two miles away named the Whitlocks. Joe

Whitlock, who was one of the merchants and one of the businessmen had two

tractors, and in the evenings after school I would go do some of his work,

plowing, disking, and planting. He even had lights on the tractor so you could

work till midnight. So it was fun. I enjoyed it. It wasn't that demanding; I did

a lot of work and I enjoyed it.

Kennelly: Did people with the tobacco tend to go around to harvest one crop, put

it up, then house it, and then go to the next farm and things like that?

Finney: Oh yes, 00:05:00let's see, there was my Uncle Spencer, Mr. Junius Venable, Mr.

Johnny Hicks, and the Whitlocks, and the Worshams and the Heaths. This was

during wheat-harvesting time, before they had combines, when they had binders

and threshers. Those families would get together and go from one farm to the

other farms to help each other, because it required a lot of people to bring the

wheat in, thresh it, and handle the bags. So those farmers and communities

worked together, and, of course, I worked with them in those activities.

Kennelly: Is this an integrated community?

Finney: Yes, the Worshams, the Heaths, and the Whitlocks were white. The Hicks,

the Venables, and the Finneys were black families, but they worked together when

it became necessary to do large operations when families had to work together.

Kennelly: Did your family hire people to help too?

Finney: No, we didn't hire anyone. Everyone was volunteer help so whenever

someone helped us, we would help them, and that way it didn't require financial

payment of wages.

Kennelly: Was 00:06:00there a big social to build a sense of community? Did you

socialize together and have potlucks?

Finney: What I would say the major social activity was the wheat-threshing

times. When of course everyone would get together to help, and the big meal in

the middle of the day was lunch time. There were tremendous meals. The wives

would fix large dinners; a wonder we didn't die, eating those big meals in the

middle of the day in the hot weather. But those activities were part of the

community 00:07:00 activities.

Kennelly: Would those dinners be integrated?

Finney: Yes, the mealtime would be. That was about the only time when there were

integrated activities other than work activities.

Kennelly: What kind of school did you go to when you were in elementary?

Finney: I started out in the local small school called the Pine Hill Elementary

School, which was located one mile from my home. My grandmother taught six

grades there in the school, so there were grades one through six. The students

who were within three or four miles of the school would come for early

education. So when I started school, at five or six years old, I went to that

school, and then at about the fifth grade, they consolidated some of the schools

near the courthouse area. Students who 00:08:00were in the fifth and sixth grades went

to a consolidated school. There was a colored fair building, and all of the

black students in those grade levels went to the fair building for their middle

school. After finishing the middle grades, I went to high school, which was then

the segregated high school called Pocahontas High School for grades 8 to 12. I

graduated in 1954 from Pocahontas High School.

Kennelly: Was the first school where your grandmother taught, was she the only teacher?

Finney: Yes.

Kennelly: Was it one room?

Finney: Yes.

Kennelly: How many students were there?

Finney: I would guess about 40 or 50 students for 00:09:00all of the grades. At that

time, the upper grade students would help with the lower grades. That is, those

students who were in those upper grades like fifth or sixth grade would help

teach the students that were in the first and second grade. It was quite a challenge.

Kennelly: I could imagine.

Finney: But that's the way it was.

Kennelly: Your white neighbors' kids, they were going somewhere else?

Finney: I believe there was a consolidated white school so all the elementary

students that were white went to the elementary school in the courthouse area.

So they had their schooling, but it was separate from us. The year I graduated

in 1954 was the year the Supreme Court decision was handed down mandating

integrated education in the state and also throughout the country.

Kennelly: How did you feel about the 00:10:00quality of your education?

Finney: I thought it was outstanding. I thought we had very good teachers. Of

course my grandmother taught elementary school, but even beyond that point, the

teachers we had were very dedicated teachers and very much concerned about their

students and very good in terms of getting information taught to their students.

Even in high school I thought we got very good instruction. I might mention,

when I was in high school, a number of members of my family taught high school.

The vocational agriculture teacher, Edward Finney, was a cousin; his wife

Freddie Finney, taught eighth grade. I had 00:11:00an uncle, Emory, who worked at the

school as a janitor, and his wife, Mary Florence Finney taught ninth grade

English. She was also a ninth grade sponsor. So I had family members who taught

in elementary and high school. The other teachers were also very good. The

principal, Mr. George W. Ransome, and his wife, Alberta Ransome, taught in the

high school and they were outstanding. Mr. Venable taught history, James

Venable. I had another cousin Annie Willis Harrison, who that taught in the

school. I'm not sure which subject she taught, but she was also a school sponsor

for one of the senior classes. Anyway, I enjoyed it, we got a good education,

and I thought we were well prepared for college.

Kennelly: Was there a big emphasis on education in the family?

Finney: Yes.

Kennelly: The grandmother who was the teacher, that was your paternal grandmother?

Finney: Yes, Fannie Johnson Finney, my grandfather's wife, Eugene's mother.

Kennelly: Did either of your parents go to college?

Finney: 00:12:00No, my father didn't finish elementary school. He couldn't read or

write. I have concluded that he must have had a learning disability because when

I was going to school my mother and grandmother worked with him to try to get

him to write, but he had great difficulty trying to write or sign his name. So

he never learned to read or write. Nevertheless, he functioned well in terms of

counting his money and doing the things that you would normally do; very few

people would know that he couldn't read or write unless he was asked to do it.

My mother went to elementary school, but didn't finish high school, but she

could read and write, and function very well.

Kennelly: Was she involved with the 00:13:00 farm?

Finney: My mother didn't do farm work. She was the housekeeper. She prepared the

meals, cleaned the house, and did everything necessary to keep the house

running. Of course, my grandmother taught school so she wasn't there to do the

housework. And my father and grandfather worked the farm, along with myself.

Kennelly: So when you went off to college, who continued to work on the farm?

Finney: My dad did some, but the farm work gradually ceased being done because

my dad, after I left, worked on the State Highway Department. He became a

laborer on the county highway department until he retired in 1975. So the farm

work 00:14:00really declined after I left. So that's the story of the farm.

Kennelly: Does your family still have that land?

Finney: Yes, my family still has the land. In the middle 1980s, the land was

sub-divided and deeded to the heirs. That is, when my grandmother and

grandfather died, they didn't have a will, so the land was sub-divided into

eleven sections and each heir was given a deed of the property that they would

have inherited from my grandfather. So the farm ceased being a farm; in fact it

ceased being an operating farm in the middle of the 1960s. I graduated in 1954

and went to college, but in the summers I would come back and do some work to

keep things going.

Kennelly: When you were growing up and in high school, did you have much contact

with white people besides the people you were doing the farming with?

Finney: Only the neighbors who 00:15:00we were farming with, and with the local business

merchants. I mentioned the Whitlocks. Mr. Joe Whitlock ran a sawmill and a farm

and a small business on the corner of Rt. 609 and Rt. 13 where Macon is located.

Across the street on that corner is a post office, Macon post office, Macon's

store, which is also a general store where we did all of our shopping. It was

operated by Ernest and Bernice Nicholls and their son Roy Nicholls who took it

over after they passed. So I interacted with them, and we were good friends,

sometimes, cleaning the yard or washing the car, whatever was necessary when I

was in school. So they were good neighbors and good friends.

Kennelly: 00:16:00Have you experienced any racial prejudice?

Finney: Not from the people in the community.

Kennelly: Have you experienced any from traveling?

Finney: No, I don't think I traveled that much to experience that. (However,

when I entered military service in 1963, there were limited accommodations when

traveling by car.)

Kennelly: So you pretty much felt accepted as a person?

Finney: That's correct. Even though we knew that it was a segregated society as

you are aware, we had separate schools, so I guess there was a general

recognition of what your limits were in terms of interacting and traveling and

having social contact.

Kennelly: Was there any kind of restaurants or anything there?

Finney: Yes, but we never went to any white restaurants. There were black

restaurants and white restaurants. That is, the restaurants that were owned by

black merchants and restaurants owned by white merchants. Of course, we never

challenged the tradition because we recognized what was expected.

Kennelly: Was anyone in your family politically active?

Finney: 00:17:00Not when I was in high school. After I graduated from high school, I had

a cousin who was a vocational agriculture teacher, Mr. Edward Finney, who became

very active with the Democratic Party in the county and in the state and worked

for candidates that he wished to support.

Kennelly: Was anyone in the NAACP?

Finney: Yes, certain members of the family were members of the NAACP

Kennelly: You would go to meetings?

Finney: Yes.

Kennelly: So there was a consciousness?

Finney: Oh, yes.

Kennelly: Was church important in your family?

Finney: Yes, we were very active in the church. The local church in the

community was Pine Hill Baptist 00:18:00Church, which was a mile from our home and very

near the Pine Hill Elementary School that I went to as a child. That was the

family church. At that time, church services were only held once a month for the

rural churches. At Pine Hill we would have services the first Sunday of the

month, but Sunday school would be every Sunday. There would be other churches

that we would go to. On the second Sunday we would go to my grandmother's

church, Pleasant Grove Church in Amelia County. On the third Sunday, we would go

to Hollywood, which was another church. And then on the fourth Sunday, we would

go to Mount Calvary, which was the church where my father's sister Aunt Annie

Willis was active [Note: She was also known as "Aunt Nita": Annie Juanita Finney

Willis]. So Sundays were church times. Also, Sundays were social times where the

extended family would get together. For example, Mount Calvary on the fourth

Sunday, after church, the family would get together and have a big dinner at

Aunt Annie Willis' home (Aunt Nita's). When we went to my grandmother's church

in Amelia, on the second Sunday after church, we would visit her nieces and

nephews and have a big dinner. So those were church times and social occasions.

And I think the 00:19:00reason church was only held one Sunday a month is because these

were small communities and you could go support other churches during the other

Sundays when they didn't have church locally.

Kennelly: And a chance to see other people.

Finney: And a chance to visit, that's exactly right.

Kennelly: When you were in high school, what else did you do for your social life?

Finney: Well, there were small juke joints or restaurants, or places you could

go and people could buy beer or have a meal or have a juke box and do dancing.

So on the weekends, particularly Saturdays and Friday evenings, that's where 00:20:00people would congregate and have a little entertainment and social interaction.

So those were the things we were involved with from a social standpoint.

Kennelly: Now you went to Virginia State for your first year of college. Why did

you decide to go to Virginia State?

Finney: Well, of course Virginia State, at that time, was the black college. It

was the primary black institutional land grant college. I was interested in

studying agriculture and that's why I decided to go there to get a degree in

agriculture. And it was locally available, it was reasonably priced, and I had a scholarship.

Kennelly: You had a scholarship to school?

Finney: I had some financial support to go to Virginia State. You may not be

aware, Virginia State 00:21:00University is a land grant college, a black institution.

Many of the vocational agriculture teachers who taught in the counties

throughout Virginia had gone to Virginia State and had their training in

agriculture and they were teaching in the local high schools. And those

vocational high school agriculture teachers were important links to Virginia

State in terms of students going there who were interested in studying

agriculture. So Edward Finney, my cousin, said, "well, you should go to Virginia

State, I got my degree there, it's a good school, if you want to study

agriculture you should go there". And he had made a recommendation to the

professors and to the college and arranged for me to get financial support. I

was able to get a job "arranged" working in the cafeteria, serving and mopping

the floor for financial support. So that's why I went to Virginia State.

Kennelly: So what happened that you decided to transfer to Virginia Tech?

Finney: I was interested in getting a degree in agricultural engineering. 00:22:00Virginia State University, well Virginia State College at the time in

Petersburg, did not offer a degree in engineering. They offered some course

work, but not a degree. So in order for me to get my degree in engineering,

agricultural engineering, it was necessary for me to go to an institution that

offered a B.S. degree. So I decided to come to VPI, at least apply and to seek

admission to get my degree in agricultural engineering.

Kennelly: So did you get a scholarship?

Finney: I had some financial support from --, I'm not sure what organization it

was from. Was it Southern States? It was some type of farm organization that

gave me $200 or $100, some 00:23:00support. The major financial support that enabled me

to come to VPI came from my aunt, my father's sister. My father has a sister

named Novella, Novella Finney. Her married name is Novella Ambrose. She also

lived at home when I was growing up there. My grandmother, who I mentioned

taught elementary school, Fannie Finney, suffered a stroke in 1947. When she had

a stroke, my Aunt Novella came home and took over teaching the elementary school

in Pine Hill. I have another aunt. One of Grandma Finney's daughters, Lillian,

came home to look after her because she was paralyzed and bed-ridden. So when my

grandmother had the stroke, two of her daughters came home, one looked after her

and one taught school. 00:24:00When I decided to go to Virginia State, Novella provided

financial support for me because my mother died in 1954, about a week or two

after I went to Virginia State. My mother had a brain hemorrhage. So Novella

then began to provide the financial support and encouragement. So she was the

source of financial support. Novella paid my tuition here at Blacksburg. Every

semester when the tuition came due, she sent a check to pay that. She also paid

the rent for my boarding at Mrs. Janie Hoge's house. When I came to VPI, I was

not allowed to live on campus, but the university had made arrangements with

Mrs. Janie Hoge who lived at 306 East Clay Street. Novella paid the $60 a month

lodging fee for my stay at Mrs. Hoge's house. So she has invested in 00:25:00 me

substantially over the years. That's the reason I came and how I was able to

support myself through my family and through a couple of scholarships at VPI.

Kennelly: How did you come here the first time you came?

Finney: My cousin, this vocational agricultural teacher that I mentioned to you,

Edward Finney, drove me up in his car. In fact, before I came up here to stay, I

had made arrangements to come up to visit with the Dean of Engineering and the

head of Ag. Engineering Department. And Edward drove me up and came with me in

the spring of 1956 to have my first visit on campus. After I was accepted, he

drove me up with his car with my clothing and trunk. That's how I arrived on

campus the first time.

Kennelly: Can you recall any of your first impressions when you first got here?

Finney: Not really, I arrived at Mrs. Hoge's house and met the 00:26:00other students

who were living there. I came on campus and arranged to get my ROTC uniforms,

but nothing was especially striking that I remember about my first visit on campus.

Kennelly: Did you think of yourself as a pioneer?

Finney: Not really, not in those terms. I thought it was an exciting experience.

I had known about VPI and Virginia Tech through contacts with others who lived

in the county and visited and had gone to school here. And of course I read

about Virginia Tech in the newspaper and 00:27:00magazines, and I knew it was a very

good school. I didn't consider myself a pioneer in that light. I thought the

other students who were ahead of me might have been pioneers, but by the time I

arrived things were working pretty smoothly. Charlie Yates and Peddrew and the

others had come before.

Kennelly: They had all been there about two years before you?

Finney: Yes.

Kennelly: Were Charlie Yates and Irving Peddrew living in Mrs. Hoge's house too?

Finney: Well Peddrew had dropped out. He was the first student that I think

after the first year, he was no longer able to attend. For whatever reason, I

don't know if the pressure was too great academically, but I know he was no

longer attending VPI. But Charlie Yates and Lindsay Cherry and Matthew Winston

were still living with Mrs. Hoge and had been living there for one or two years

by the time I arrived. So they had worked out all of the mechanics of going to

VPI and living off campus with Mrs. Hoge.

Kennelly: Was it difficult not to be 00:28:00living in the dorm?

Finney: Not really. No, I didn't find that to be much of a handicap. We were

fairly close to campus; it didn't take long to walk. And I thought we had a very

good social environment at Mrs. Hoge's house with the other students. So that

was not a handicap to me.

Kennelly: Did you eat all of your meals over at Mrs. Hoge's house?

Finney: Yes. We had breakfast and went back to Mrs. Hoge's for lunch and dinner.

Our schedules that we had worked out enabled me to do that without any problem.

Kennelly: Did you ever feel like you wished you could eat with the other people?

Finney: No, I never felt that. I never felt I could eat on campus. And I guess

it 00:29:00was understood that I couldn't eat on campus, so I never challenged that.

Kennelly: Did that bother you that you couldn't?

Finney: Didn't bother me. I came here to get an education, and I was getting it.

I had very good interaction with the students and the faculty. I guess that's

the thing that I appreciated most about the experience at VPI. I thought the

students accepted me as a student, and the faculty was extremely receptive and

helpful, and I thought it was a great experience.

Kennelly: Did you feel prepared that you were ready to go off running?

Finney: Well, yes. I had two years at Virginia State in Petersburg, and I

thought that had well prepared me for the course work here. For example, when I

was at Virginia State, I was preparing to take courses in engineering, so I took

a number of courses in mathematics, chemistry, and physics. When I came here, I

was asked to take a course in calculus or 00:30:00geometry or something like that. Well,

I had that course at Virginia State, but I guess the feeling was it might not

have been up to standards. When I took the course in analytical geometry and

calculus here, it was a breeze. It just was not a challenge. I must mention that

the professor who taught calculus here on campus really was a very good

professor. I can't remember his name, but he was really outstanding. It was just

a review, but had I not taken it, I would have been able to pass that with him,

because he was very good. He taught things in a way that was very clear. He had

examples and just his style was excellent. So I didn't have 00:31:00any problem at all.

Now, when I was at Virginia State, I did get some extra help with math, because

the head of the Math Department, Dr. R.R. McDaniels (and the dean of Arts and

Sciences), was married to my cousin. In the evenings, once or twice a week, I

would go over to his house and get tutoring. That helped an awful lot. So I

didn't have any problems academically when I arrived on campus. I think I was

well prepared, and undoubtedly the two years at Virginia State were very

helpful. I probably would have had some challenges if I came here directly from

high school. So I think that was a good decision to go to Virginia State for two

years before coming here.

Kennelly: I understand that you received a letter that said, "We have decided

that we can accept you at VPI to take our course in Agricultural Engineering."

Did you have a sense that you were 00:32:00operating under an administrative

restriction? I suppose in your case that's really what you wanted to do so it

wasn't a problem. Let's say you changed your mind and decided to study something else?

Finney: I never thought about that. I had never thought about whether or not I

wanted to take a course outside of the engineering, there would be a

restriction. For some reason, it never crossed my mind because I was very

definite in terms of what I wanted to do. Making a change or considering what

the limitations would have been had I decided to do otherwise did not cross my mind.

Kennelly: At that stage in your life, what was your goal?

Finney: Well, I wanted to get a degree in agricultural engineering, and I wanted

to go and work for Ford Motor Company and manufacture tractors, and sell

tractors, and design tractors. That was my goal. Now you want to know why I

didn't do that. Is that the next question?

Kennelly: I would like to know.

Finney: After I 00:33:00finished my degree at Blacksburg, that was in 1959, in fact

before I completed my degree, the head of the Ag Engineering Department,

Professor Earl Swink approached me and recognized that I had the capability of

going to graduate school. He encouraged me to go to graduate school. In fact he

made arrangements for me to go to graduate school by calling Frank Peikert who

was the head of Ag Engineering at Penn State, and telling him that I was a good

student and that he wanted me to go to graduate school and get a master's

degree. He also wanted me to have financial support to do that. So Professor

Swink called Frank Peikert and arranged for me to be admitted to Penn State for

a master's degree and arranged for an assistantship for financial support. With

those arrangements, there was no reason for me not to go to graduate school. 00:34:00 So

instead of going to work for Ford Motor Co. or International Harvestor or John

Deere working on tractors, I decided to go to graduate school. That's why,

because of the recommendation and the support of Prof. Swink and Phil Mason who

was also a professor in Ag Engineering. So I think you get a sense, that when I

say the faculty and staff were very supportive, I think that's an indication of

their feeling for me personally and for the work that I did and the for what

they wanted me to do.

Kennelly: Did you get your doctorate at Penn State?

Finney: No, after I went to Penn State in [19]59, I was successful there, and

Professor Peikert, I mentioned that Professor Swink had called Frank Peikert who

was the head of ag engineering at Penn State, thought that I should go on and

get my Ph.D. Frank Peikert, at Penn State, had graduated from Michigan State,

and had some contacts at Michigan 00:35:00State, so he had contacted Dr. Farrall, who

was the head of Ag Engineering, A.W. Farrall, and arranged for me to be admitted

to the Ph.D. program at Michigan State and also arranged for me to get a

research assistantship for financial support. So when I finished at Penn State

in 1960, I then went to Michigan State in the spring of 1961 and began my Ph.D.

program at East Lansing. So that's the story to that.

Kennelly: I want to go back again. When did you get your Ph.D.?

Finney: In 1963, I started in March of '61 and completed my Ph.D. in August of

'63. Let me mention another aspect of going to Michigan 00:36:00State, I'm not sure if

that applied to Penn State or not, but I know that I received support at

Michigan State. At the time when I finished my undergraduate degree, the state

of Virginia had a program where they discouraged blacks from going to graduate

school in the state. They would as a matter of fact, provide financial support

for you to go to graduate school outside of the state. So when I finished at

Penn State, there was this program where you could apply and get financial

support from the State of Virginia to go to graduate school somewhere else. I

don't remember how much money I was receiving from the State of Virginia for

going to graduate school at Michigan State, but I know that every semester I

would apply, and this money would come in to pay for graduate school at Michigan

State in East Lansing. That was a very interesting program, wasn't it?

Kennelly: Wasn't that strange?

Finney: Very strange, but strange things happened at that time as you 00:37:00 can

appreciate. Let me mention something else to you if you are going to record this

for historical perspective. As I said, when I came here there were certain

restrictions on going to VPI. You may have read that there were great

restrictions on the high schools in the state. For example when the Supreme

Court issued the decree to integrate the schools in the state of Virginia, there

were some high schools that closed, especially, you probably heard of Prince

Edward County, which in fact closed the schools and had private academies

created. When I was here in 1956-59, I think it was 1958, the governor was J.

Lindsay Almond, and there was a great debate about integrating the schools in

Front 00:38:00Royal. One evening when I was looking at the news, Governor Almond came on

and had indicated that he would not close the schools in Front Royal, but those

schools would be integrated. That was quite a decision for him to make as

governor, because at that time, it was the policy of the "Byrd machine" that

there would be "massive resistance" to integration in the state of Virginia. I

think that was a significant decision by a governor who had been supported by

the Byrd machine to say that no more schools would be closed, that they would be

kept open and that the schools would be integrated. And Front Royal was the case

that broke the line or broke the barrier toward integration. So J. Lindsay

Almond, in my mind, was a brave person. I've always appreciated him for that decision.

Kennelly: Were you conscious here of people's response to this resistance?

Finney: Well, on the university campus those were off campus. The high school

segregation and integration activities were off campus. And I didn't sense on

campus that there was much 00:39:00involvement or debate or concern about that aspect of it.

Kennelly: It wasn't discussed?

Finney: Not that I'm aware of. Certainly not on campus. Not by the faculty or

the staff. I guess you would appreciate that perhaps for an engineering graduate

that probably would be nothing to be discussed. If I were a sociology major or a

political science major, there probably would have been great debate about that,

but not in our classes.

Kennelly: Back to the time of being a student, I understood that you were

assigned to the room of two other students to prepare for drill and other Corps functions.

Finney: You know, I don't remember that. That's something I don't remember. It

was in the article, and it's probably true, but I don't remember being assigned

to a room. I know that occasionally I would go and visit a room and do certain

things, but I wasn't aware that I was assigned in that light. But, that may be true.

Kennelly: So it wasn't like you went to 00:40:00prepare for special dress events or

something like that?

Finney: No, because most of the time as a member of the Corps of Cadets, you

were always in uniform. Now there may have been certain activities when I had to

change uniforms or have certain paraphernalia that I would leave in someone's

room, but I don't remember that part of it.

Kennelly: Well, did you feel comfortable with the other cadets? I guess the

Corps--at that time, everyone was part of the Corps.

Finney: No, not everyone. No, there was still a civilian component to the

student body, from 1956-59. So there were civilians as well as members of the

cadet Corps. So not everyone.

Kennelly: So you had decided to join the Corps?

Finney: I had decided to join the Corps, because one of the options I wanted to

have when I graduated was to be 00:41:00an officer in the military. So by staying in the

Corps, I could get a lieutenant's commission, and if I decided to go, I could

pursue a military career as opposed to working for Ford Motor Company, or

International Harvestor, or John Deere. So that was an option that I wanted to

have available when I finished my college degree.

Kennelly: I want you to comment on your experience in the Corps of Cadets.

Finney: It was a very good experience. I had very good working relationships

with the members of the Corps, even when I came the first year. You know your

first year you are considered to be a "rat" and you had to wear a white belt or

something like that. I didn't have any problems my first year with harassment or

hazing. Everything went real well with me. I had very good experiences with the

Corps. I enjoyed it. It offered some discipline to my work habits and my

activities. We took some 00:42:00trips and did some parades and I enjoyed it. It was

good. I only rose to the rank of sergeant. I didn't become a lieutenant or a

captain or a commander in the cadet Corps. But that was not one of my goals when

I was at VPI. My goal was to get my degree and participate in the Corps, but not

necessarily become a Corps commander or company commander or whatever.

Kennelly: But you were an officer.

Finney: I was a sergeant.

Kennelly: So you went on a trip with the Corps at one point?

Finney: Well of course, each year there was a game in Richmond. I don't remember

the name of it, but the cadet Corps would assemble, and there would be a parade

there in one of the main streets in Richmond and go to the game and have a good time.

Kennelly: So did you feel apart of the group? Did you feel that you were just as

much in the group as everyone else did?

Finney: Yes, for those 00:43:00activities, yes I did.

Kennelly: When the Corps would be eating, would you eat with the Corps?

Finney: No, I didn't eat with the Corps. I don't remember the Corps eating while

we were in Richmond. After the activities, I usually went and visited some of my

relatives after the activities were finished. There were social activities

somewhere else.

Kennelly: Would you go to the football games?

Finney: I think I went to the football games once or twice, but they weren't

great activities for me. That wasn't one of my main social outlets.

Kennelly: Was it offensive to you when they use to bring out the Confederate

flag at the football games?

Finney: It didn't make an impression on me.

Kennelly: They talked about the Highty Tighties playing "Dixie?"

Finney: No, that didn't bother me. That wasn't something I paid much attention

to or made much an impression on me. It didn't bother me at all.

Kennelly: 00:44:00Did you have the consciousness of feeling excluded from experiences

because of the color of your skin?

Finney: Well of course there were social activities on the campus that we could

not participate in. I believe on one or two occasions we went to see President

Newman to discuss the desire to participate. He was very gentlemanly, but he was

also very firm that we could not do that. And, I guess, once he said that was

not possible, we went back to 306 East Clay Street and went back to work, doing

our academic studies.

Kennelly: What were the activities that you could not participate?

Finney: They had the cotillions and social dances, you know certain things that

concur for the senior class and junior class. So we had gone 00:45:00to see Dr. Newman

to indicate that we thought it would be appropriate for us to participate in

those activities, and he made it clear that no, we could not. The board of

directors or the board of trustees' policy was that we could not do that. So I

assumed that if we flaunted those policies we might be expelled, and it was not

worth being expelled from the university.

Kennelly: What did you do for a social life?

Finney: Here?

Kennelly: Yes.

Finney: Well, let's see, we went to Christiansburg. There was a school over

there, so there were some activities over there that we participated in. And we

just did things around the local black community to further our social activities.

Kennelly: So there were some people that you might date or whatever?

Finney: That's correct.

Kennelly: It was pretty much the black community and altogether with the black community?

Finney: That's right altogether with the black 00:46:00 community.

Kennelly: Were there local churches?

Finney: Of course, there were churches. In fact, there was a church right next

door to Mrs. Hoge's house where we participated in church activities.

Kennelly: Actually, you are listed in the Bugle as a distinguished military

student, in the Bugle of that year.

Finney: Yes.

Kennelly: So you must have done very well in your military community to have

that "distinguished" adjective.

Finney: "Distinguished." Distinguished military student or distinguished

military graduate. What the criteria is, I'm not aware, but obviously there was

some criteria that the ROTC department had in terms of your grade level, in

terms of your participation, and activities outside of the Corps. I guess there

is also a summer camp that you go to at the end of your junior 00:47:00year. I went to

Fort Knox, Kentucky, and you get graded there on your activities, how you

participate, your scores, your test results, and your athletic activity. So

based upon my academic standing, my participation, and events outside of the

Corps, whatever criteria they had, they decided to award me the distinguished

military student and the distinguished military graduate award.

Kennelly: When I looked at the pictures-- I should have brought the

yearbook--Company G, I think you were in?

Finney: Company G, that sounds right.

Kennelly: That's where your name was listed. You're not in the picture as far as

I can tell.

Finney: Oh, well I might not have been there the time they took that picture.

Kennelly: Do you think that was accidental?

Finney: I think so. Yes, I know there were some other pictures where they had

the leadership of the Corps of the company. I think I was in that picture, but

there were a couple of pictures that I was in associated with 00:48:00G. One of them I

think I'm in civilian clothing. Is that correct?

Kennelly: Sort of dressed up. It looks like you could have been going to a dance

or something, but I guess not.

Finney: I wouldn't think that that was intentional. It may have been some

conflict that day, but I wouldn't think so. I wouldn't think that was intentional.

Kennelly: I guess I wondered if living off campus, if that would make a

difference just as far as the participation?

Finney: Oh yes, it would make a difference in terms of participation. There's no

doubt about that. In my mind, the things I didn't participate in weren't that

important to me. So I didn't make a big issue of it.

Kennelly: When you returned from being a rat, was there a lot of hazing going

on? Did you participate in the hazing of the rats of the next group?

Finney: Modestly, modestly. Not to a great degree, because I was not impressed

with 00:49:00hazing of freshman students coming in, so I did not do a lot of that. I

might have spoken up or gotten in someone's face, but beyond that I would not

have given them a hard time.

Kennelly: You mean, as a sergeant, sometimes you didn't have to do that?

Finney: Yes, sergeants can be very difficult. Had I lived on campus now it might

have been a different situation because I would have been in contact with the

freshmen more frequently. In the evening and at dinner time you might have given

them a hard time, but living off campus it didn't make sense to come back to

haze a student.

Kennelly: You probably would have been removed?

Finney: That's correct, yes.

Kennelly: Did you feel like your authority was accepted?

Finney: Yes, I didn't have any concerns about my authority being honored and accepted.

Kennelly: It was like everybody was just into the military.

Finney: That's correct, yes.

Kennelly: You were a 00:50:00member of the American Society of the Agricultural Engineers?

Finney: Yes.

Kennelly: What did that involve?

Finney: The American Society of Agricultural Engineers is a professional

organization of individuals that have degrees in Agricultural Engineering. There

are about 8,000 members of the professional society. Its headquarters is in St.

Joseph, Michigan. I joined my senior year at VPI (see page 76 of the

1959 Bugle) and have been a member ever since. They usually have one or two

professional meetings a year where members present technical papers of their

research findings, their research contributions. The society presents awards to

recognize outstanding contributions from members of the profession. They have

committees where you can get together to do work that is of mutual interest in

certain areas like 00:51:00designing tractors, or developing standards for certain

components of tractors, or developing standards for drainage and irrigation

equipment. I participated in that throughout my career. I have been a chairman

of committees. I was elected to the board of directors in the 1970s. I was

elected a Fellow of the society, which is the highest honor the society can

give. And so I have been participating in the professional society. As in any

profession, there usually is some organization you should join and participate

in, work with other colleagues professionally, and to grow professionally, and

share professionally. So ASAE, the American Society of Agricultural Engineers,

is my professional society.

Kennelly: And the Society of American Military Engineers?

Finney: Yes, I joined that when I was a student, 00:52:00but I have not participated in

that since I graduated. It was more of an honorary society for me, the Society

of Military Engineers.

Kennelly: Did you follow through with the military? You didn't go into a career

with the military, did you?

Finney: After I finished my Ph.D. degree, I went into the military for two

years from 1963-1965. I went in as a lieutenant. When you go to graduate school

you can get deferments, that is, when I finished at VPI in 1959, I was

commissioned as a second lieutenant. The military will defer you for a period of

time as long as you are going to graduate school. Their rationale being the more

education that you get, the more beneficial you will be to the military, the

more helpful, the greater contributions you could make. I had a deferment from

1959-1963. When I finished my 00:53:00Ph.D. degree at Michigan State, I went into the

military service for a two-year military obligation. I was in the Transportation

Corps. I did my basic military training at Fort Eustis in Virginia. Then I spent

the balance of my two years at the U.S. Army Rocky Mountain Arsenal in Denver,

Colorado where we were working on a special classified project related to the

military interest. So I did spend two years in the military, but I didn't go

into combat. You might say my tour was a plush tour. I was in the military; I

was in uniform, but most of my activities would be 00:54:00industrial related, related

to the military interest, a classified project. But one thing I must say, when I

was in the military, there was a colonel--Colonel William Tisdale, was my

supervisor, and I learned something from him that has been helpful to me in

life. Colonel Tisdale was a very well organized person in terms of business

activities, in terms of industrial activities, and in terms of coordinating a

number of activities at one time. The scheduling, the review, the evaluation,

and getting the most out of the people that worked for him. He was a very good

manager, a very good executive. I learned how to manage from Colonel Tisdale. My 00:55:00first management experience came from him. I must acknowledge that he was a

mentor for me.

Kennelly: Speaking of mentors, as far as Tech, who would be the person you had here?

Finney: I would say I had two mentors at Tech. One was Professor [E. T. ]

Swink, who was the head of the department and I mentioned his role in my going

to graduate school. The other person who I thought very highly of, who was a

very good friend and teacher, was Phil Mason. Professor Mason taught farm

structures. He was one of the younger faculty members, and I think he was more

in tuned to what was going on in Virginia at that time. He was very helpful to

me in terms of my academic work and in terms of advice and guidance and going to

graduate school as well.

Kennelly: He's still here.

Finney: He's still 00:56:00here? Have you met him?

Kennelly: Yes, he's retired.

Finney: He's retired.

Kennelly: They had an anniversary for Agricultural Engineering, 75 years.

Finney: Yes, if you met him, you will understand his style and his personality

for working with people. He's good.

Kennelly: I also saw that you were a student member of the Tau Beta Pi.

Finney: Yes.

Kennelly: Which is listed in the Bugle as an association for those who

conferred honor on their alma mater by distinguished scholarship and exemplary

character as undergraduates in engineering. So I wondered if you could say how

you were nominated for this honor?

Finney: I'm not sure who nominated me, but Tau Beta Pi is an honorary

engineering society or fraternity, I'm not sure which would be correct. It's an

association I guess. But it's an honorary association for those who, as you

read, have had an exemplary performance academically and in terms in

participating outside of the academic arena. That is, the other societies and

activities you would be involved in. So Tau Beta Pi was one of the honors that I 00:57:00received when I was here as a senior. I am also now a life member of Tau Beta

Pi, and I appreciate that recognition from my peers. I suppose someone who

worked with me and knew me nominated me. So, I appreciate that; that's a great honor.

Kennelly: So you feel your strengths were recognized?

Finney: Yes.

Kennelly: It seems like it.

Finney: Yes, I would say that's why I felt throughout my career that my

experience at VPI was a very good experience. I thought I was treated fairly,

and I thought that the faculty and the staff and the students accepted me as a

student without regard to race or my color.

Kennelly: So there weren't any incidence of some faculty or staff with racial discrimination.

Finney: Not one that I can recall or that I remember. Even when I was here, not

one. And that's quite an 00:58:00accomplishment considering the time that we were

enrolled here.

Kennelly: Was there any as far as the students go, other than the fact that you

were kept isolated?

Finney: No, other than being isolated from campus living or participating

socially, none of my experiences with the students led me to believe that they

were uncomfortable or that they were treating me unfairly or discriminating

against me.

Kennelly: I wondered how life was for you just in terms of Blacksburg as a

community or as a town, if you felt comfortable. Could you go to restaurants for

a cup of coffee in Blacksburg, or for a meal?

Finney: Not that I'm aware of. I know one thing, we couldn't go to the movie

theatre, except going up to the balcony. In fact, I think one evening, we

decided to go down from the balcony, and we were escorted out of the theatre.

Kennelly: So you went down and sat downstairs? 00:59:00Finney: Yes, and they asked us to leave. If we were not willing to stay in the

balcony, then we would have to leave.

Kennelly: Were there a couple of students?

Finney: I think Charlie Yates, and probably Matthew Winston, and I decided to

sit somewhere else other than the balcony. That didn't work out. In terms of

eating in the restaurants, I really don't remember, and it's probably because we

didn't challenge it. And I'm not sure about Squires Hall, the student center

across the road, whether or not we could get something to eat there or not. I

don't remember that. I know we couldn't eat in the cafeteria.

Kennelly: Was that very upsetting to you when they asked you to leave the Lyric?

Finney: No, we expected it. We just thought we would have a little fun, test

it, see what would happen. After a while you know what the traditions are and

what's expected, and I guess if you test it 01:00:00and you're successful, you're more

surprised than if you test it and it doesn't work because you expect that it

probably is not going to be accepted.

Kennelly: Were things like you expected when you came to Tech?

Finney: Yes, they were as I expected. You asked about the campus activities.

You know one of the other things is that we couldn't get our hair cut in the

barbershop. There was a barbershop over in the student building, Squires Hall.

Of course the white students go over there to get their hair cut, but we

couldn't go get a hair cut from the barber shop. Now after the barbershop

closed, we knew the barbers, so after it closed, we could discretely go into the

barbershop and get a hair cut. No one would see us go in to get a hair cut after

hours. So that was sort of a little sideline artifact.

Kennelly: Were the barbers black?

Finney: Yes, the barbers who worked 01:01:00there were black. In fact, the head barber

lived in same house with us at Mrs. Hoge's house. I don't remember his name, but

he was the head barber, and he lived in Bristol. I'm not sure if he lived on the

Virginia side or the Tennessee side. So he would drive up, be here Monday

morning, he'd run the barbershop during the week, and stay at Mrs. Hoge's house

during the evenings. Then on the weekend, he would go back to Bristol. So yes, I

don't remember his name, but all of the barbers were black. The policy was that

no black person could go in the barber shop and get a hair cut.

Kennelly: Of course there is a big emphasis in the Corps to have your hair cut.

That's catch 22.

Finney: That's correct, but we had to get our hair cut somewhere other than the

student union barbershop.

Kennelly: Anything else like that come to mind?

Finney: Well you know it's interesting looking back in retrospect. There was

also a 01:02:00barbershop, is this College Avenue?

Kennelly: Yes.

Finney: There was a barber shop owned by a black barber, Mr. Sears, on College

Avenue. Well Mr. Sears had a barber shop too, and he was black, of course, and

all of his barbers were black. But we couldn't get our hair cut at Mr. Sears

barber shop either. Well, the reason is because the traditions. At that time had

we gone into his shop to get our hair cut he probably would have lost all of his

other customers. We didn't challenge Mr. Sears. We knew what the situation was;

he was a very nice fellow. In fact we would go over to his house in the evenings

and the weekends to shoot pool for a little social activity. He had a very nice

family. It was just the tradition of that time and that's the reality of 01:03:00 it.

Kennelly: Did you make any white friends when you were at Tech?

Finney: Oh, yes.

Kennelly: Were there any people that you kept in contact with?

Finney: For some time after I finished I did, but over the years I've lost

contact. Bobby Alderman was in my class, in Ag engineering, he was a very good

friend of mine. We kept in touch. He did go to Ford Motor Company when he left.

So I would see him, and we had contact at ASAE meetings for a number of years.

There were a few, but not long term because everyone dispersed and scattered.

Occasionally I would see someone on my job or with my work, our paths would

cross. We'd have some conversation or go out and have lunch together, but no

long-term, deep social contacts other 01:04:00than those.

Kennelly: Did you feel comfortable in class to talk and participate?

Finney: Yes, share class work, homework, and have discussions in class. That

was quite normal. There were no problems there.

Kennelly: Now, I'm wondering what you did at the end, after you got out of the military?

Finney: I finished my Ph.D. in 1963 at East Lansing, spent two years in the

military in Denver, Colorado at Rocky Mountain Arsenal. There was a member of

the Ag engineering profession who I had known of for many years. His name was

Carl 01:05:00Norris. Carl Norris was the head of the Instrumentation Research Laboratory

for the Agricultural Research Service of the U.S. Department of Agriculture in

Beltsville. He either wrote or edited articles in the Ag Engineering Journal,

which is the journal of American Society of Ag Engineers on instrumentation. I

would read his articles every month because they were always interesting and

pertinent, and my interest was instrumentation. Another factor was when I was in

the military service, there were two or three people who would come out to

Denver once a year to review some projects we were involved in related to

biological warfare. They were members of the Agricultural Research Service at

Beltsville. Dr. Quissenberry was one, Louis Wright, and there was another

gentleman, but I don't remember his 01:06:00name. I was impressed with their

professional knowledge and the way they went about providing advice to the

military service. I had discussions with them about the Agricultural Research

Service and the Department of Agriculture. So I decided, when I was in the

military service, that I would seek employment at the Beltsville Research Center

in Maryland, which is the largest research center for USDA. I wrote to Carl

Norris and sent him an application. Carl Norris wrote back to me and said they

would be very much interested in me joining his laboratory. So when I finished

the military service, I started to work in the instrumentation research

laboratory of Beltsville, Maryland. I started as a research agricultural

engineer, and I worked on the development of instruments for evaluating and

measuring the quality of agricultural products. When products are marketed, they

have to be graded 01:07:00for quality. For example, the degree of wetness of wheat,

whether its wet or dry; the protein content of wheat; the degree of the maturity

of fruits and vegetables; the color of fruits and vegetables; their textural

characteristics, whether they are tender or tough, or hard or soft. All of those

things are involved in sorting and grading, and establishing the quality

characteristics. So I worked in the laboratory to develop instruments for

measuring, sorting, and grading agricultural products for quality. So that's

where I started out, in the instrumentation research lab working with Carl

Norris. Carl Norris is one of the finest researchers and individuals to work for

that you could have. I worked in the laboratory from 1965-1977. In 1977, I 01:08:00 was

appointed the assistant director at Beltsville Agricultural Research Center.

Beltsville had a director and two assistant directors, so I was appointed

assistant director, which is a management position, assisting the director and

managing the research programs, the laboratories, and the personnel in

Beltsville. I did that from 1977-1988. In 1988, I went to Philadelphia as an

associate director of one of the regional areas of the Agricultural Research

Service covering West Virginia, Pennsylvania, all of the states up into the

northeast. Then in 1989, I came back to Beltsville as the director of Beltsville

Research Center. In 1992, I went downtown to the USDA headquarters in

Washington, D.C., as the associate administrator for the Agricultural Research

Service for the nationwide programs and research. Then in 1995, I retired. So,

that's the story of my 01:09:00 career.

Kennelly: Good for you.

Finney: Along the line, there were two things that I did in my career that were

helpful in terms of my professional advancement. In 1973-1974, I was selected to go

to Princeton as a Princeton Fellow, as a part of the federal government's

mid-career program. I guess being an engineer, my supervisors recognized that I

needed some training in management or in public administration. So I went to

Princeton as a Princeton Fellow from 1973-1974, and that was a very good

experience. I learned about public management, public administration, the

history of science, technology, and society, and the role of our economy in

world affairs, things of that nature. It was a very good program. Another thing

that helped me broaden my experience was to spend a 01:10:00year in the executive office

of the President. That was the last six months of Jimmy Carter's administration

and the first six months of Reagan's administration. And you can appreciate that

those were two very different administrations, but I worked in the Office of the

Science Advisor to the President. I was involved in providing advice to them on

agricultural research activities for the nation. So those two experiences were

very helpful to me in terms of my career advancement and my career growth.

Kennelly: Very fascinating. Did any of your relatives after you attend Virginia Tech?

Finney: None of my near relatives. I had some cousins who have attended

Virginia Tech, but no 01:11:00relatives any closer than that.

Kennelly: Is there anything else that you would like to add?

Finney: Let's see, I might mention that while I was here, on the Board of

Visitors, at VPI, there was a member from my community, on the Board of Visitors

or the Board of Trustees, whatever you call that board. Her name was Mrs. E.

Floyd-Yates. I believe Mrs. Yates might have been a teacher at the high school

in Powatan while I was there. Her husband was a member of the House of

Delegates, so he was politically active in the 1940s and 1950s. That may have

been a factor in why she became a member of the board of rectors or the board of

trustees of VPI. But I never had any contact with 01:12:00her, I never knew what her

philosophy or her views were on integrating the university or integrating the

colleges and the faculty. But that was just a side note that I became aware of

after I got here, that she was on the board of directors, and therefore would

have had some influence on the policies of the university or the campus. But I

imagine at that time, being one person, her influence probable would not have

changed the Byrd machine policy because it was so ingrained within the state. I

guess in retrospect it was a great experience, and I felt very well treated, and

I think it has been a very important part of my professional growth and my

foundation for participating in society. I am very appreciative to the faculty

and staff who were here at the time I was here and I would do it again, 01:13:00if I had

the opportunity.

Finney: Okay,You know one other thing I should say something about if I may?

Kennelly: Sure, anything.

Finney: Mrs. Hoge, Janie Hoge, who was the lady who made her home available to

us as students, I do think that she deserves a lot of credit for what she did.

Mrs Hoge was not a young lady when she had these students in her home, she was

well along in age and I know that at times she wasn't feeling very well, but she

was a great host she looked after us as if we were her own children. She fed us

well. She gave us advice. She kept us in line and I just wanted to acknowledge

her and her husband Bill Hoge and express my deep gratitude and appreciation to

her so that's for the record as well.

Kennelly: How many students were there?

Finney: There were four students there when I was there.

Kennelly: It could get lively I suppose

Finney: It could get very lively and of course feeding four 01:14:00students at that

time required a lot of preparing food and Mrs. Hoge was very thrifty, if we

didn't eat it the first time we would see it again, but she was a great cook and

a great lady. That's it.