Oral History with Walter Lewis, March 14, 1991 (Ms1991-019)

Michael A. Cooke: Today is March 14, 1991, and I'm conducting an interview

with Walter Lewis of Blacksburg, Virginia. Mr. Lewis, can you give us a brief

sketch of your life? Your birthdate, birthplace, education, occupation.

Walter Lewis: Well, I was born in Radford, [Virginia]. My parents' names was

Lillie and Walter Lewis, and I was raised there until I went into service. Then

after I got out of service, I moved to Blacksburg because of employment

opportunities, and I started working at Virginia Tech. And I've been in

Blacksburg, now, about thirty-eight years. And I'm now retired from Virginia Tech.

C: What department did you work 00:01:00in at Virginia Tech?

L: I worked for sewage service. When I retired, I was assistant manager of

Schultz Dining Hall, which is one of the units in the system.

C: Could you tell us about your education and what Black people had to do to get

an education back in those days when you didn't have integration?

L: Well, in Radford, we went to a three room schoolhouse. And I went through the

seventh grade there, and then we transferred to what was known as Christiansburg

Institute. And we were bused from Radford to Christiansburg, and I finished high

school there. And right after that-

C: Do you remember the year that you finished?

L: I 00:02:00finished in 1945, and I was drafted to the Navy the same year. And I spent

two and a half years in the Navy, and I got married while I was in the Navy. And

I came back, and I worked at Burlington Mills in Radford as a janitor for a

short period of time. Later, I moved to Blacksburg in 1951 and started work at

[Virginia] Tech. And that's about the extent of the reason I really left Radford

was because of job opportunities and job opportunities there, at the time,

weren't that good. I mean, you either had to be a school teacher, a cook, or janitor.

C: [Laughs]. And that was it?

L: And that was it. That was it. So, of course-

C: Did you look into trying to get a job? I mean, were you actively seeking a

job in your community?

L: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I tried to find a job, but at that particular time, when I

got back to the 00:03:00country was kind of in a slight recession, I guess you would

call it-

C: That would--be yeah.

L: And jobs were just hard to come by.

C: Yeah, [19]51 would be-

L: Yeah, so we just had to take whatever you could get, and that's what I did.

[Laughs] I had a wife and one child, so I had to work somewhere. I had to do something.

C: That's for sure. Did you ever think about leaving the area--I'm talking about

leaving Virginia--all together?

L: No, I never did. I liked the area, so I guess that's one of the reasons I

stayed. I had a lot of my friends that left for that reason because they could

find employment elsewhere.

C: Where did they go?

L: Well, most of them went to the cities.

C: Which-

L: They went to Washington, New York, and some of them went south to Atlanta.

But really they scattered about all over,. But-

C: Did you ever think about working in the mines?

L: 00:04:00No, I had no intention. [Laughter].

C: You had no intention?

L: No intentions in working in the mines. A lot of people around here did work

in the mines, so especially a lot of people in the whites only areas. They had a

mine down there.

C: What was the name of the mine?

L: I really don't know, but it was mines down there. And most of the people in

Wake Forest, at that time, did work in the mines.

C: Big Vein and Great Valley.

L: Probably.

C: Yeah.

L: Probably, yeah. They worked there. I never had intentions of going to the mine.

C: Anybody in your family ever worked in the mines?

L: No. Well, yes I did. I had an uncle. I had two uncles who lived in West

Virginia who worked in the mines, but I never did.

Myrtle I. Lewis: Good morning. I'm sorry. Sorry, I wasn't here to greet you, but

I was taking a bath.

C: Okay. [Laughs] So, you had an uncle? Were they from this area?

L: Oh, no, no, no.

C: Oh, they were from West Virginia?

L: Yeah, they were from West Virginia.

C: Where did your family originate from? Was it from Radford? I mean, 00:05:00if you go

back as far as you can trace your roots, where did they originate from?

L: As far as I know they mostly originated in Radford. My father and his people

lived in Radford, and my mother was from Christiansburg.

C: Oh, she was from Christiansburg?

L: Yes.

C: What was her maiden name?

L: Hausten.

C: Hausten. I heard that name before. Somebody taught school in Blacksburg by

that name I believe.

L: I don't-

C: Maybe.

L: I don't know, but my grandfather was pastor at First Baptist Church out on

Clay Street.

C: What was his name?

L: Hausten.

C: Hausten. That's where I heard the name because there was a photograph of the

Board of Trustees, and the lady I interviewed pointed at and told 00:06:00me the names

of each one of the persons and that's why I remember that name.

L: Yeah.

C: Okay. Was he the minister before Travis?

L: Yes. Yes.

C: I see. I see. Now, I knew that name sounded very familiar. Let's see. When

you were going to Christiansburg Institute, how long did it take you to get from

Radford to Christiansburg Industrial Institute?

L: Well, I would say probably about half an hour, forty-five minutes.

C: Do you remember the stops you'd go? You'd probably got that etched in your

memory by now.

L: Well, from the point that I was picked up, we were using the last people that

were picked up.

C: Oh, so you just went straight through-

L: When we got on the bus, we went straight 00:07:00into Christiansburg Institute. As

matter of fact-

C: Not like the people, the poor people in Vicker, [Virginia] or some place like that.

L: Yeah. Right. Right. Now, I drove the school bus for two years myself, and

I've been against kids going to school driving school buses because I know what

I did. I would get in it and run it as fast as it could run. [Laughter]. But

anyway, when I drove, I drove a bus that was in--really, I lived in Montgomery

County. Of course, Christiansburg Institute was in Montgomery County, but it

seems as though the county rented the bus from Pulaski County. And we had to

pick up children out of Pulaski County, so I had to go over to New River. And I

made a stop in New River then I had to leave New River and go back to Rock Road.

C: 00:08:00 Okay.

L: And I picked up children there. And then I came back through Radford and

picked up the Radford children and then went straight into Christiansburg. And

we had a bus that was too small.

C: Was it too old?

L: It was too old. It was about twelve years old or something like that. It was

a thirty-two Dodge and this was in 194-

C: A thirty-two Dodge?

L: Yeah. This was in [19]43, [19]44 and I was driving. I didn't drive my last

year. And children were sitting on each other's laps and all this kind of thing.

And that went on for several years. And I was at service, and they had a little

rebellion. And the kids 00:09:00refused to get on the bus and girls sitting on boy's

laps and that kind of thing. And at that time of course this was just completely

out of question. And so they refused to get on the bus, and finally Montgomery

county bought them a decent school bus to ride to school in. And I don't know

exactly what year that happened, but I was in service when it did happen. But, I

do know it did happen, and it was in Radford. Kids in Radford just refused to

get on the bus.

C: Because it was just-

L: It was just too crowded, and like I said, you know, there were girls sitting

on boys' laps and all this kind of things, you know. Some of the parents didn't

approve of it, so they told the school board and they told the principal and

they told them and they gave them ample time and they told them and they set a

date and they said if this happens on going, we refuse to get on the bus and go

to school. And they did.

C: You were in the service during this time, so it must have been between

[19]45. And you got out of the service when?

L: It 00:10:00happened between [19]45 and [19]47.

C: Okay, so I'm going to try and find that. That's probably in the school board

records. I'm pretty sure I can find that. I'm going to look that up.

L: Yeah, somewhere between [19]45 and [19]47.

C: That's interesting. Were there any community leaders that you heard this

second hand?

L: No, this wasn't second hand. I didn't want to get into that, but my father

was the one that was leading them and my sister was involved also. And he said

he wasn't going to have his daughter going to school everyday sitting on some

boy's lap.

C: So, your father's name again is?

L: His name was Walter J. [James] Lewis.

C: Senior?

L: No. No. Just Walter J. I'm not a junior

C: Oh you're Walter C.?

L: No, I'm just Walter. No, I'm Walter H. [Henry].

C: Oh I'm sorry. I thought-

L: And he was Walter J.

C: Okay, I'm sorry I didn't get that. And your sister was named?

L: Catherine.

C: Catherine?

L: Catherine [Delaney] Lewis.

C: Lewis. So these two people. 00:11:00Were there any others that were prominent?

L: Oh, I'm sure there were, but, you know, I wouldn't remember all of them now.

C: Do you remember a name by Walter Price? Is that a name that strikes you?

L: Yeah.

C: Was he very active in the Radford community?

L: Yes, he was. You're talking about--Yeah, he was.

C: Do you recall an organization called the County Wide League?

L: I recall it, but I just don't remember that much about it. Yeah, he was very active.

C: Now, he was a civic leader in the Radford area.

L: Yes, he was very, definitely. He was involved in everything.

C: What kind of things was he involved in?

L: Well, for instance, he was instigating to getting a playground. At that time,

you know, you didn't have much money and he could and go 00:12:00recruit money from

whites to do various things. Of course, they were happy to give it to you as

long they felt like they were keeping you happy. And he was just a leader,

that's all. Now, I can't give you that much information on him, but he's got a

son that lives in Christiansburg.

C: What's his name?

L: Walter Price.

C: Walter Price. Oh yeah I've heard that name.

L: Yeah, lives in Christiansburg. I think he's Walter Price, Senior. No, he'd be

Walter Price Junior.

C: The names came up because I've been interviewing a number of people, and for

instance, I was interviewing Waymon Pack and he was talking about a number of

Black leaders that were part of the County Wide League. And he mentioned Walter

Price and people living in the Blacksburg area and people living in the

Christiansburg area. A guy in Victorville named Dillard, and since you're from

Radford, maybe you might be one of the few people who knew him.

L: Yeah. Yeah. He lived next door to us. 00:13:00But, I knew Mr. Price well.

C: What was his occupation?

L: As far as I know he was retired from the railroad.

C: So, he was a retired individual?

L: Yes. I think he probably retired on disability because I'm sure when I was

growing up, Mr. Walter, I'm pretty sure he wasn't working. And I do know that he

worked for the railroad company. I'm pretty sure he probably retired on

disability or something, but I know he was retired. But, like I said though his

son could give you more information on it than I.

C: Well I got a starting place there. That's good to know. When did he die?

L: Mr. Walter must have died around [19]46 00:14:00because I was in service.

C: Oh, so he was?

L: I came home for his funeral now that I think of it because I was in service.

C: I see. So, you had to have emergency leave to attend his funeral?

L: Yeah, I got leave and came home to attend it. I went to his funeral, so I

would say it had to be in [19]46.

C: Was it a well-attended funeral?

L: Oh, yeah.

C: Was he highly regarded?

L: Yeah, he was well known. Yeah. Very highly regarded.

C: Did whites attend the funeral?

L: I'm sure they did.

C: You just can't recall?

L: I just don't recall.

C: Would you say that he was the civic leader? Or one of the most significant

ones among the Black civic leaders?

L: I would say he was one of the most significant.

C: Who were the other people for that time?

L: Well let's see-

C: Even if it was your father. I mean, don't feel bad for your neighbor.

L: Yeah, he would have been one and there was a lady--'course she's dead

now--Ms. Emma Shanda. She was quite a leader at that time. [Long pause]. I just

don't recall.

C: Okay, well that's a number of people that you 00:15:00named. That's probably far more

than many people realize. But, anyway, that's a good point. Now, you came to

Blacksburg after getting out of the service, and you had a child, I guess,

shortly after the marriage.

L: Yeah.

C: And what was it like for your child to get an education in this area? Where

did she go to school? And how did she get to school?

L: Well she went to-

C: And where were you living too? I think that's another-

L: In town.

C: You were living in this location?

L: In this location, yeah.

C: So it was virtually Grissom Lane known as Canum [15:44].

L: It was just Grissom Lane at the time. It was just Grissom Lane at the time.

Yeah, I was living in this area. My family had a house, but the house burnt

down. It was adjacent. Right over there. 00:16:00You probably parked over at that house.

C: Oh, yes.

L: And well, I don't remember any bus going up there then or not. I know I used

to take her to school.

C: You'd take her--drove her to-

L: Yeah for--well, when she was small, I knew I drove her to school.

C: What school did she go to? The Clay Street one or the one on Harding [Avenue]?

L: No, Clay Street. Used to be Clay Street. Little school house right up there.

C: With what one or two rooms?

L: I'd say probably two rooms. No more than that. And she went there, and then

later there was a bus, later. She used to catch a bus.

C: Did it come all the way down-

L: Yeah, it went all the way down to the foot of the hill.

C: To state maintenance, I guess.

L: Yeah. Yeah.

C: And then after that they said, forget it. You know so people down in Nellies

Cave, they probably had to walk up to the bus.

L: No, it went 00:17:00all the way down to the foot of the hill in Nellies Cave.

C: But the people, let's say, in the county who are-

L: Yeah, well the people that lived way down below me.

C: Yeah.

L: They walked up because the road wasn't completed through there.

C: No. No.

L: But, then the road was completed through there. And so my children are going

to high school at the time, and this guy would go down the road--and of course

my children used to wait when it's cold--and when he went down the road they'd

go right straight down the hill here and stand and wait till he come back. So

then one day he told them that he wasn't going to stop there anymore. That they

would have to walk out here to-

C: To Shelor Lane?

L: To Shelor's Lane.

C: Um-hm.

L: So, I told them, I said, you go on down there, and if he don't stop, you come

up back home. And I'll take you to school, and I'll see about it. So, he refused

to stop.

C: Was this a white driver?

L: Oh, yeah. So, I went on; I went on. I talked to the gentlemen--I don't

remember who he was now--he was in charge of 00:18:00transportation. And I asked him,

why? And he had no reason. So, then he called the guy and the guy said that bad

weather. He couldn't stop there. Well, I could take that in consideration, but

this was a perfectly dry day. So, then they came up, if a child didn't have to

walk more than a quarter of a mile--less than a quarter of a mile--then they

didn't have to stop. He would have to go. So, I measured on the speedometer and

it was a quarter of a mile, my goodness. I said, that's a quarter of a mile.

C: [Laughs].

L: And I told him, I said, you're going to have Grissom Lane right out here. You

stop at this house; you stop at this house. I said, there's not fifty feet

between the stops that you 00:19:00make, and you don't want to make one stop

here--that's probably half a mile between--to pick up my children. That's

something wrong. So anyway, he stopped. He stopped. He picked them up. And that

was the only problem I had with-

C: That's typical of I guess being Black. He was doing it because you were

Black, right?

L: That's the only reason I knew.

C: He was just trying to be smart.

L: So, then of course, at this time, of course, they were in high school then,

but we had a little incident on Harding Avenue, where they refused to--well the

children would come home, and at lunch time the teacher would make them wash

their hands before they eat, which is fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But

they didn't have any hot water. The water was cold. They didn't have any hot

water hooked up there 00:20:00at all. So, a few of us got together, and we went over to

talk to the superintendent of schools. And we walked in, and we told him why we

were there. And he reached in his drawer, and he pulled out a whole group of

cards. And he started telling us about various schools in the county that didn't

have hot water. And so I said, wait a minute, wait a minute. Sit down. We are

wasting time. I'm not interested in those schools; I'm only interested in

Blacksburg elementary schools. I said, we got children up there that's washing

their hands in cold water and coming home fully cold. And I said, there's no

excuse for this. I said, we want somebody to hook up a hot water tank and a hot

water system in the building. He said, well he didn't know if he could do that.

And at that time, of course, 00:21:00there was the integration thing, you know-

C: So, this was right after Brown vs. The Board of Education?

L: Right. Right. So anyway, we told him, well if you can't do that, give us some

people placement applications cause you had to go through that process-

C: [Laughs] And you were-

L: And we would send them to Blacksburg, the white Blacksburg elementary school.

So he went back to his desk, right, and took a couple deep breaths. And he told

me, he said, well I'll tell you what. Call back about three o'clock this

afternoon, and I'll give you some decision. I said, okay fine. Three o'clock, I

called him. And he said, well I've sent some people over there and said that

they have looked at the drawings and they will hook you up with hot water.

C: [Laughs] That was quick action.

L: Well, they didn't want to go through the people placement application thing.

C: Because they didn't want the Blacks-

L: No, they didn't want the Blacks 00:22:00 to--

C: Voluntarily, desiring to come to the white school.

L: Yeah, of course, you know in those days you were supposed to have separate,

but equal. But, it was a long ways from being equal. So, that was the whole

thing. So, that was decided.

C: Were there any other parents involved besides yourself?

L: Oh, yes, yes, yes.

C: Could you name some of the people who went along?

L: There was Aubrey Mills-

C: Aubrey Mills?

L: Yes.

C: Senior?

L: Yeah. And Ed Green. You know Ed?

C: Yeah, yeah.

L: Ed. [long pause] We were the three spokesmen, let's just put it that way.

[Laughter] So, you know, they had their hands full when they'd seen the three of

us coming.

C: Right [Laughs]

L: But, we were the spokesmen for the PTA, let's put it that way. And, of

course, they were other parents that didn't belong to the 00:23:00PTA, but they were

backing us. It was Ms. Drewery who isn't alive any longer-

C: Yes.

L: She was part of the PTA. Just about everybody you could think of around

here--Christian [Lewis] Price.

C: Right, I know him.

L: And I'm sure Ida was--Mills

C: Ida. I guess it was Ida Mills, then.

L: Yes, Ida.

C: McDonald.

L: McDonald, yeah. See all these people were members of the PTA at the time.

Even Mrs. Glenn was part of the PTA.

C: Mayme Glenn?

L: Yeah.

C: And she didn't even have any children?

L: No. No. But she would just come.

C: She's a very educated, intelligent person. She was very concerned.

L: She was concerned, yeah. She was concerned. You know most of the people in

the community would [inaudible 23:51].

C: So, did you go before the school board or you simply went to the superintendent?

L: Nah, we just went to the superintendent of schools.

C: So, this was never 00:24:00entered into the record. Just simply-

L: No, that won't be in the records.

C: That was just one on one in a private session?

L: Well, it was one on three. [Laughter].

C: Let me get that right. Yeah, you're right.

L: Yeah, that was more or less what it was.

C: Well, anyway it was very effective [Laughs].

L: It was. It was. It was perfect. But, we were serious though; we weren't

playing. We were serious about that.

C: So, if he had simply stonewalled or said, we'll get back with you and didn't

get back with you or if he said he wasn't going to do anything for no uppity you

know what, what would have been the reaction of this group?

L: We would've took the people placement application.

C: So he understood that? I mean, he was an intelligent man, and he understood

that these people are not playing around here, so I'm not even going to test 00:25:00them; I'm not going to stonewall them; I'm going to get this matter resolved in

the best way I can. So that was his tactic he took.

L: Yeah, that was-

C: Was this the only time this neighborhood association to take that kind of

stance? I mean--maybe not connected with the school board--what about the roads

or goods and services such as trash pick up or things of that nature?

L: I don't remember ever having to [inaudible 25:27].

C: So, but in this case-

L: Just this situation.

C: Well, it's an important situation.

L: Yeah, it was; it was. You know, either you do or we're going to do otherwise.

C: You just have to take it.

L: You know, years ago you couldn't do that. You didn't have a weapon to fight with.

C: Um-hm. But after Brown vs. the Board of Education the number of legal

decisions that were adversely affecting white school boards, they had to be

responsive. In a way, perhaps if this was before Brown 00:26:00if you did the same

thing, and this problem obviously had been persisting, right?

L: Um-hm.

C: Even before Brown-

L: Yeah.

C: Had ya'll thought about doing this before? Before Brown?

L: Well, I don't guess we really had given any thought when we couldn't do

anything about it anyway.

C: So, in other words, Brown had an effect of saying, well it gives us some

leverage that you didn't have.

L: Right, right, right.

C: So, you hadn't even thought about this.

L: No.

C: The coals and the going to the doctor and numerous doctor visits in the past.

You just simply grin-

L: Just grin and bear it.

C: There's nothing you can do about it.

L: Right, right. When I was a kid, you know, if you wanted to go downtown--if

you wanted a sandwich--you couldn't walk in the front and sit down and eat. You 00:27:00went to the back door, and they handed it to you out the back in a bag and you

took it and left.

C: That's--regardless of what you thought about yourself as a Black person-

L: Right.

C: You didn't break the conventions.

L: That's right, that's right. So, you know-

C: You know, you could have been the toughest person in town, you would've did

the same thing.

L: That's right. And then if you provoked the situation and went in and sat

down, a man would come in there with a headache stick and put you probably like

they did these kids in Los Angeles here not long ago and took you on and dragged

you to jail and there wasn't nothing you could do about it. There wasn't no law

in the world going to protect you, that gone set the man free. You could go to

court if you want to, but they would rather beat you half to death and then set

him free anyway.

C: Did things like that happen in here to Blacks?

L: Not in this area. that I'm aware of. I won't say that it didn't-

C: There was no police brutality against any Blacks that you know of?

L: Well, not really. Not really that I know of. I used to read about it, you

know, in the paper down south where, you know, you'd be traveling.

C: But that didn't happen here?

L: Not to my knowledge-

C: I've never heard of anybody acknowledge that, 00:28:00so I'm not surprised. So, just

things like that just didn't happen, for the most part, in this town.

L: Not to my knowledge. Of course, didn't nobody block the system either.

C: Yeah.

L: That makes a difference also.

C: That's true. If they had done it then maybe things might have happened

otherwise. Was there any Klan type activities? Or were there problems with

certain white residents who had a kind of redneck mentality towards Blacks?

L: No, not to my knowledge.

C: No racial epithets when you walked down the street?

L: Oh well, you know, we kids going to school we used to--well we had to walk

through all around this neighborhood, whites had a problem with it. We had to

walk about a couple miles to school.

C: No stones?

L: Well, we used 00:29:00 to-

C: Or fights?

L: Yeah, we used to fight everyday. Knocked off the sidewalk or something. But

it wasn't always their fault. A lot of times just some of us being devilish and

just to show us someone bucked one of them off going to school in the morning.

We had to fight our way out of that in the afternoon. [Laughter]. And we did it,

and we did it. But that's just kids. That was just kid stuff.

C: When I'm talking about Klan type activity, then that's a whole other-

L: Yes. Right, right, right. You know, I've heard my father talk about things

that Klan who burned cross here or there something in his time, but not in mine.

C: No crosses burn if you can recall?

L: Not that I can recall.

C: Not in your community at least.

L: Right, right, right. Yeah not in my community, yeah. I guess they're still

burning crosses-

C: Oh yes.

L: But yeah so, not in my community at least.

C: I think I heard somebody mention they burned one somewhere in Christiansburg

a couple years ago, wasn't even reported in the newspaper.

L: I don't 00:30:00 know.

C: I mean, you wouldn't know cause the newspapers didn't want to brag-

L: They didn't want to print it.

C: No. So it was buried. You wouldn't think something like that would happen

cause they didn't want it to reflect badly on the community, I guess. Anyway,

let me ask you some other questions. In terms of race relations with local

authorities, how did the mayor-- well I guess, that's kind of a tough question.

Let me ask another question, then. What about Black business? Were there any

significant Black businesses? And did the Black businessmen tend to be the civic

leaders of Blacksburg?

L: I would say so. One really significant Black business was a barber shop that

was owned 00:31:00by John Sears. I'm sure you've heard of him.

C: I've heard him, yes.

L: Yeah, it was owned by him, and he was I guess he was sort of a civic leader

as far as Blacks were in Blacksburg. Of course, when I came to Blacksburg, of

course, his shop was there. It was on College Avenue and did military [inaudible

31:36]. [Phone rings] As far as I know, that was about the only Black business

that I can think of that was in Blacksburg at that time. I just don't recall--

C: What about John Warren?

L: Well-

C: He was a 00:32:00 barber.

L: Yeah, right. [mumbles] John Warren.

C: I believe that's the right name-

L: Yeah. John Warren. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, he was a barber, but I thought he worked

at Sears' [inaudible 32:20].

C: Okay maybe that's true. That's right-

L: Well, now, there was a Warren that owned the dry cleaners.

C: Was he Black?

L: Yeah. I think he owned the dry cleaners. At least he owned the building that

the dry cleaner was on. So I was told. But, all that happened before I moved to

Blacksburg, so I don't know.

C: I see. You just don't know.

L: Unh-uh. But I was told that he owned the dry cleaners. It's in the building

within there. You know where Sander's Cleaners is?

C: Oh, yes. Right.

L: I was told at one time that they owned it, that the Warrens owned that

building and that Mr. Warren had a dry cleaner establishment.

C: Oh.

L: But that was before my time, that was 00:33:00before I came to Blacksburg.

C: Maybe that's why people say that Sanders, at one time, had been a Black

establishment because I thought it was the Sanders, you know, had been the Black

establishment. Maybe that shop, at one time, had been what people really were

referring to. Had been Black owned then somebody sold it.

L: Right. The Curnells [33:17] had a dry cleaner. Yeah, they had a dry cleaners

at one time.

C: Yeah.

L: Yeah, they had a dry cleaners at one time. They had a dry cleaner business up

there on Roanoke Street. At one time, but that was about the only business other

than--well Charles, well you know about Charles Johnson.

C: Um-hm.

L: But that was about the only one in Radford. Uh, when I was growing up, I

don't remember any businesses. From when I came out of service they had about

two or three clubs that Blacks owned, but they didn't last very long. Fly by

night 00:34:00 hotspots.

C: Like the Chicken Shack? [Laughter]

L: Yeah, but they didn't last long. But I can't think of any real significant business.

C: Okay. What about civic leaders? If you had to define that, who were some of

the people, the Blacks, who were the civic leaders of that day? If you had to

name them.

L: Well, you mean in Blacksburg?

C: In Blacksburg. Obviously, John Sears-

L: John Sears was one and Mr. Curl, Warren Curl [34:31] and-

C: What about any of the ministers?

L: Well, Archie Richmond 'cause Archie was definitely a good civic leader. He

was an individual who 00:35:00had a lot of persuasive power. He could talk you into anything.

C: Did he talk you into some things?

L: Yeah.

C: [Laughs]

L: Quite a few of them. And he was a young man. He came here a young man right

after he finished college when he came.

C: Oh, I see. Was he married?

L: No. Not when he first came here. And he was-

C: Did he live in the area? Or did he live-

L: Oh, yeah. Yeah. He lived in the church parsonage.

C: Okay.

L: At the time. Then he taught--after he finished school--he taught over in

Friend's Elementary School for a few years, and then he went into professional

scouting and he was still [inaudible 35:44] even then. Of course, later on,

[inaudible 35:50] he moved on but he did a lot 00:36:00of scout organizing throughout

[inaudible 35:56]. But he did a lot of scout organizing throughout the valley.

And his district, I guess he was probably the only Black district leader that

they had at that time.

C: In Virginia?

L: I'd say in Virginia. I don't exactly know, but I'm pretty sure that he was.

And his area covered everything from Martinsville, [Virginia] all the way back

up the Galax, [Virginia]. It was quite an area. And he really built it up and

had it-

C: Was it integrated? Did he try to-

L: No, it was all Black.

C: Oh he had controlled an all Black Boy Scout?

L: Right, right. [inaudible 36:53] district. Now, before he left they 00:37:00 did

finally hire another district man. And he was from the Martinsville area, and

they sort of divided the district up. Archie didn't have quite as much to do as

he did, but the man had more than he could do. Trying to cover all that

territory, but he did a wonderful job with it. And he was quite an instrument in

the scouting program.

C: Did he help bring about the integrated scouts?

L: Yeah, yeah. He helped to some degree, he did. Cause he was, more or less,

began to move about the time that the scouting people moved him. See, they moved

him to the scouting headquarters in New Jersey.

C: So, that's why he's in New Jersey now.

L: That's one of the reasons, yes. But he's completely out of scouting now. He's

gone back into the 00:38:00 ministry.

C: I see.

L: It's a pretty large church. It's got six or seven hundred members. He was

that kind of man that could move. He could move people; he was a motivator.

C: Motivator. Did the church grow while he was--his own church St. Paul?

L: Yeah. Yeah, it grew while he was--

C: Do you recall an incident where he was involved when he got jailed?

L: Yeah, yeah. He was on a Sunday school picnic, but I was working. I don't know

if my wife was there or not, but I was working. And they went to Carter Wayside

Park. It's between Pulaski and Wytheville. And they had two sides up there, and

there was a little stream that ran down in between-

C: [Laughs] That's nice.

L: See, and one side was for 00:39:00Blacks and the other side was for whites. So Archie

told them, he said, you know, there is no reason to stay over here; let's go

over here. So they went over there. [Laughs] They went over there, and they

asked them to leave and they refused to leave. So, anyway they arrested Archie,

and so then one of the gentlemen that was with him went up and bailed him out

and everything. So, anyway when they went back for the trial they threw it out

of court. They didn't want no part of it. It was a hush hush thing; they just

got rid of it real quick. 'Cause I was told the trial was going to be in

Wytheville. I think the whole Wythevilleeld high school showed up for the trial.

C: [Laughs]

L: And they just stand in the corner. And the judge said that they hadn't had

any racial problems before and that he felt like maybe this was just an incident

that could be overlooked and 00:40:00just threw out of court. So, that was the end of that.

C: [Laughs]. Did he get involved in other controversies besides that one? That's

one, I guess, it was [phone rings] very visible that he was involved. [Laughs]

L: Yeah that was about the only one that I can think of that he really got

involved in that would have caused him--

C: Did he talk about integration and the need for integration?

L: Well, he had a need for it, yeah.

C: But did he talk about it publicly?

L: To a degree, yeah. There was an organization, Virginia Council of Human Relations-

C: Yes.

L: That came about. And come to find out--I was treasurer at the time--and we

used to meet and of course there was board meetings to discuss phases of

integration and so forth. Of course, he was 00:41:00outspoken there with the issues that

came about.

C: Do you remember some of the issues he talked about?

L: Not specifically, no.

C: Not now. Well, let's see who was involved in that particular council? You

said yourself and he was. Was it a biracial committee or was it just a committee-

L: Yeah. Yeah, it was a biracial type thing. Let's see. Just about all the

Blacks in Blacksburg at one time or another attended, I'm sure. Now, I was on

the board. Archie was on the board. I thought [Inaudible 41:25] was on the

board. Carl Williams was on the board.

C: What about whites who were on the board?

L: Oh, let's see. There weren't that many. There was Ellison Smyth [41:44]-

C: Um-hm.

L: And his wife. and there was Grant Mathos and her husband. 00:42:00And that was about

all the whites that are on the board in that council. I don't remember who was

president at this time. Oh, there was Greg Norman. Norman--what was his name?

[doorbell rings] His last name was Norman, but he and his wife were there, too.

I don't remember who was president at the time.

C: Was it effective enough in bringing about integration? Do you think it

smoothed the waters?

L: Well, it kind of smoothed things out at times, a few things came about, but

not a whole lot. But, a few things came about. It kind of brought good relations

between us, in some degrees, but not always-

C: But a dialogue. In other words, it created an opportunity for dialogue.

L: Yeah, in other words, it was just something to get together and talk about

anyway. And some good things came about it, I guess. We integrated scout troop,

more or less came about through this.

C: 00:43:00Any other areas that you remember?

L: No. Not while I was there.

C: Okay. Integration stories or anything of that nature?

L: Hey. Excuse me.

C: Oh, we'll stop here.

[Break in recording]

C: Okay we're back. You were talking about the council helped in a number of

areas. It established a dialogue, and then it did lead to specific things like

integration of the boy scouts which was an accomplishment.

L: Yeah.

C: Did you have any relationship with businesses? Did you communicate with the

business leaders? Or were any of the people on the council connected with businesses?

L: No, no. But this helped because after this we started to, sort of,

communicating I guess a little bit with businesses. 00:44:00But, the children, this is

funny--[Laughs] Okay, I was here at the house one night, and both of the girls

came in, Jack and Myrle. They said, daddy, said tomorrow night said, said, you

might have to come get us out of jail. I said, wait a minute [Laughs] now sit

down here, and see what y'all talking about.

C: [Laughs]

L: They said, well, they said, we were planning on going up to the bus stop, and

we going in and sit down and order something to eat. And said, we don't know

what kind of trouble we'll run into. Said, if they refused to serve us, we were

going to sit there. Well, I can't remember now if that was a time that they were

having the sit-ins or not. I just don't remember all of the country, but anyway.

I said, now wait a minute. Now just hold on a minute here. Before y'all do

anything, now, we got to talk about some stuff. 00:45:00So, I got on the telephone, and

I called the members of the council of human relations. And so we agreed. So, we

talked to the children and got them to hold off until we could have a meeting

with them and talk to the children first. [females talking in background] So, we

talked to the children, and then we told the children that we would take this

thing to city council and see if city council would form some type of committee

to talk to the business people in town and see if we couldn't work out a solution.

C: Who was the mayor? Did you approach the mayor as well?

L: No, no.

C: Just the city council?

L: Yeah, yeah. Of course the mayor was there.

C: 00:46:00Was it John-

L: John Barringer.

C: So you approached John Barringer?

L: Yeah, and the council.

C: And the council.

L: Right.

C: Do you remember the people who were most responsive or--?

L: No, not now. I don't even remember the people who were on the council at that time.

C: [Laughs]

L: But anyway that night, he called a gentleman who wasn't at the council, John

Hutchenson. John was a young man at the time. He called John and asked John if

he could come down. And John come down, and the mayor appointed John to hit up a

biracial committee to talk to businesses. So, John did. So then John came back

and said that the business had agreed except for the bus stop. [Laughter]. Had

agreed to-

C: [inaudible 46:56]

L: Yeah. So, the kids held off. 00:47:00So, I guess it was probably in the spring when

they were having the spring formals--I don't know what they call it at

[Virginia] Tech now, used to call it the formal.

C: The Ring Dance?

[Break in recording]

C: Okay, we got interrupted and we were talking about how the counters, the

lunch counters and drug stores were integrated here. Your daughters approached

you and said, we're going to go out and raise hell. [Laughs] You said, woah. You

said, that you approached the authorities, and they began to orchestrate a

process where they would voluntarily agree to end segregation.

L: Yeah. That's-

C: And you can talk some more about the details of how this came to pass.

L: Yeah, that was about the size of it, really. I had a Professor call me and

ask me if I would go to Hardie's restaurant with him.

C: Do you remember the professor?

L: I can't remember him now because he wasn't here that long, and he left and he

got a job, I think, at Georgia Tech.

C: 00:48:00Did you know Ellison Smyth?

L: Yeah.

C: Was he a friend of Ellison Smyth?

L: That I don't know.

C: But he knew Ellison Smyth?

L: Oh, yeah. I'm sure he did.

C: Was he one of the people that was part of this council?

L: No. Well, like I said, he wasn't here for very long, and he did come into the

council. Now, who he knew and who he brought him in, I don't know.

C: Okay.

L: But he wasn't here very long. And he called me one night and asked me if I'd

take my family and we'd go to Hardie's. And Hardie was supposed to be one of the

hold out, one of the die-hards. And we did go, and we just walked in, and they

seated us. And they served us, and Mr. Hardie himself came over to us. And he

talked to us, and he told us he hoped we'd come back.

C: What was his first name do you remember?

L: John Hardie.

C: John Hardie.

L: He owned Hardie's restaurant at the time and he owned that lake terrier motel there.

C: Oh, 00:49:00yeah. Is that John Mumford's father?

L: John Mumford's father. Yeah, that's John Mumford's father.

C: Okay.

L: Yeah that restaurant now is a Chinese restaurant.

C: Yes, right. Well see, this is a small world isn't it?

L: Oh, yeah.

C: Now, John Mumford, for the record, is the delegate from this area-

L: This district. Yeah, right.

C: This district. And her father, how do you spell Hardie? H-a-r-d-y? Or d-i-e?

L: H-a-r-d-i-e is the way I spell it, but I'd have to look in the telephone book

to make sure. 'Cause I'm sure that there's some Hardy's in there.

C: Does he have any living sons?

L: Yeah, he's got one son.

C: Oh, yeah. It is i-e now that I think about it because I read something about

one of the sons.

L: Yeah, right. That was the son.

C: Well, we 00:50:00won't talk about that [Laughs].

L: Right. Right.

C: That's another issue-

L: That's a whole other ball game.

C: [Laughs]

L: Yeah, that was his son. I think there was only those two children. I'm not

sure if the mother is still living or not.

C: So, that went off without a snag and your family--who went with you? Both

your daughters and yourself? Did Jackie go?

L: I'm sure she did. Most likely brought the two boys, too, plus my wife.

C: And then what happened after that situation? Did other things happen as a

consequence or?

L: You mean as far as counters were concerned?

C: Yeah, counters. What about employment? Did they even start to employ more

Blacks as maybe cashiers? When did-

L: No, not then.

C: That's too early.

L: That's too early. They didn't let us do nothing like that then. Best thing we

can do is stay in the kitchen, cook, and wash dishes. I don't recall, really,

the first black cashier or person working in even one of those grocery stores,

really. It was some years 00:51:00 later.

C: Some years later.

L: Some years later.

C: What about the movies? Did the movies get affected by this new kind of new

order so to speak?

L: Not right then. I don't think they got into it until the law said, you know,

you can't discriminate.

C: So, you had selective segregation [Laughs]?

L: I guess you could call it that. I guess that's one area that nobody really

got into. There really wasn't much concern about it. By this time, people had

television anyway and the movie industry was sort of taking the back seat. Well,

at one time, you know, that theater thing kind of took a back seat there for a

little while when TV got so 00:52:00popular when they finally got to a place where

everybody could afford one. For years, could nobody afford one-

C: Exactly

L: Because they was too expensive. But, It kind of took a backseat for a while.

C: It was not really a pressing matter.

L: No. No.

C: The most important thing is that if you went downtown, at least you can get

served in a decent manor.

L: Right. That's right.

C: And not go cringing around the back to a cutout place.

L: Right. Right.

C: So, I think that was the most important.

L: Yeah that was.

C: So, what do you think was the most important? The right to be served with

dignity? I mean, how would you articulate the reason why you people were so

adamant about this?

L: Well, if you wanted to go to town, and you wanted to be served, your money

was as good as anybody else's money. So, why couldn't you have the same

privileges that everybody else had? I mean, why would you have to pay the same

price for a 00:53:00sandwich and take it out the back door and have to eat it, you know,

in the alley, on the way home in your car or what? Why couldn't you just go in

there and sit down and order a sandwich and be served like everybody else? I

guess it's a matter of dignity, it's a matter of pride, it's a matter of being

equal, it's a matter of my money is as good as yours. So, why can't I have the

same privilege as you have? If I'm going to spend my money, then I should be

able to dictate what goes on or what's going to happen to it or how I'm going to

use it. You know? And if you want my business then you should treat me like you

treat everybody else. Of course, at that 00:54:00time, I don't guess restaurant owners

want your business, really.

C: They didn't care. Well, when everybody was in conspiracy together where the

conventions were that Blacks could be treated any shaggly--

L: Oh, yeah.

C: Very shaggly fashion then it didn't make any difference. Thank you. But

that's interesting. I don't think anybody could fit it any better what you just

articulated in the way you did. Let's see, what about Black social life? I mean,

you say people began to have more televisions and were able to entertain

themselves. But, prior to television, how did people entertain themselves? What

was the Black social organizations of the day, of that day rather?

L: Right off hand, I can't think. You know it used-

C: Fraternal 00:55:00organizations or Odd Fellows?

L: Well, you know they would have-

C: Social clubs?

L: Right. They had-

C: Big Wiz Club?

L: Yeah. People would just get together. Say, come over tonight; we're going to

play cards. Or every once in a while, someone would just have a party at the

house. And of course, somebody was always getting the dance.

C: What kind of people? Was it an organized dance or just-

L: Well, most of the time organizations giving dances to raise money for

first--for one thing or another, you know.

C: What kind of organizations were holding dances?

L: Well, let's see. Like PTA dances, now they would hold a dance-

C: Oh, so your PTA group or other group?

L: Yeah, we would have help and you know, some of the other organizations would-

C: And then you would use the money for-

L: Money went to buy equipment or whatever, you know, whatever was needed.

C: Whatever was needed for school-

L: Whatever was needed for--yeah. That kind of thing.

C: That's very interesting.

L: Well, I guess in a way, we weren't making enough money then, so I guess this

was one way that we had to 00:56:00make a little money and put it into use, you know.

And every once in a while, you know, somebody from church, or somebody, would

have a dinner and charge for dinner and you know and this kind of thing and you

do that and eat and socialize.

C: So, let me put another question, some people think that Blacks in Appalachia

are really kind of like hermits, you know. Are invisible and don't have any

institutional life or no social life. That's all a lie.

L: Right. Right.

C: That's just not the case.

L: That's not the case at all.

C: Because there is a complex web of things that tie people together.

L: That's right.

C: Did you know, virtually, all the Blacks in town?

L: Yeah, at that time. Yeah. Let's see, there were no Blacks at VPI other 00:57:00 than

who worked there. I mean, no one was going to school. There were no professors.

It was all white. So, you knew just about all the Blacks in town. The population

in Blacksburg was less than two percent Black. So, you knew everybody. Everybody

knew everybody. It's not anything like it is now. Now, I could leave here today,

and I can go to town and walk past a dozen people that I don't know. Black

people I don't know, but that used to not be the case. You knew everybody.

Everybody in town.

C: So, you had a really close knit Black community or I guess you had a number

of communities cause we have the Bitter Hills and you got Nellies Cave and you

got New Town and, you know, various communities. But, Blacks as a group, as a

minority group in this area, were very cohesive and close knit cause everybody

knew everybody.

L: Everybody knew 00:58:00 everybody.

C: In fact, quite often everybody was related to everybody [Laughs].

L: Yeah. People didn't live right all congested in one area. They were scattered

all over, but everybody knew everybody. And at sometime or another, they all

came together for some event.

C: Well, now I guess the last thing I want to clear up is you said a John

Hutchinson, is he still living in the area?

L: No, he's dead.

C: He's deceased.

L: Yeah.

C: Okay, well I think on that note, I think I don't like ending in death, but I

think we covered a lot of ground. Is there any loose ends that need to be tied

up or?

L: No.

C: I think we basically touched on all the topics we needed to deal with. 00:59:00 I'd

like to thank you for your cooperation.

L: Sure. No problem.

C: There's a lot of things going on around here.

L: [Laughs]

C: Hopefully I'll do justice to what did go on.

L: Well, good. I hope so too.

C: Okay we'll stop here.

[End of Interview]