Oral History with William Burrell Morgan, February 25, 1991 (Ms1991-019)

Michael Cooke: Today is February 25, 1991. I am conducting an interview with

William Burrell Morgan. Who is known in this area as Burrell Morgan of

Christiansburg, Virginia. Mr. Morgan, can you give me a brief biographical

sketch of your life. Your date of birth, birth place, occupation, education?

William Burrell Morgan: I was born in Buxton, Iowa, August 20, 1908, which makes

me eighty-three years of age in August. And my parents were from Virginia but

they went to Iowa to live, and they stayed out there about twenty years. And I

had a brother, S.B. Morgan, who was born in Iowa. I had a sister who was born

before they went to Iowa. But my brother and I were both born in Buxton, and the

way the town 00:01:00Buxton got its name was the man who owned the coal mine was named

Ben Buxton. He sent an agent here to get people to go work the coal mines for

better benefits in Iowa. My father was among the group that went to Iowa. So, we

stayed out there until the mines worked out, and after the mines worked out, we

moved from Buxton to Cedar Rapids. Cedar Rapids is where the quaker oats people

live, a big meal out there. My daddy used to run a grain elevator for the quaker

oats people. And he worked for a short time for the Argo Starch people out there

in the tall corn country.

C: I've been there. [Laughter]. There's plenty of corn.

M: That's right. [Laughs].

M: So, we stayed there until my mother's health began 00:02:00to fade. And she said she

felt like she wasn't gonna to live long--and she was from Iowa--and she wanted

to return to Iowa for her last day. So, my father and my oldest sister-

C: She was from Iowa? Your mother was from Iowa or Christiansburg?

M: Actually, Blacksburg. So, she wanted to come back to Virginia, and I remember

as a child when she used to sing the song "The Blueridge Mountains of Virginia."

I heard her sing it so many times. I'm getting home sick. My brother was born

1914 in Buxton, and so after her heath failed, my dad said she wanted to come

back and he would bring her back to Iowa. So we came back here to

Christiansburg, 00:03:00and we came back here and immediately after World War I was

over. And as well as I recall, I think I went up on the hill one year--I would

call it the Hill--the school near the church there before I went to

Christiansburg Institute. And my brother, of course, was younger than I, and he

went to the Hill School, too. So-

C: So what years did they offer education for people at the hill school?

M: It went up to sixth grade.

C: Then after that you'd have to come to Christiansburg Institute?

M: That's right. Began with the seventh grade. It went to seventh to eleventh.

They said that the seventh grade was called the preparatory for high school. We

only had eleven grades at Christiansburg Institute. But they said that eleven

grades at Christiansburg Institute was 00:04:00equivalent to twelve grades in other

schools. So even if you finished at Christiansburg Institute, you could enter

Howard [University] without taking an examination. That was one of our-

C: So, it had very fairly high standards?

M: That's right, that's right. See, Christiansburg Institute was a boarding

school. And see the colored people couldn't go to these schools nearby, and

children came as far as Washington, and Bristol, Virginia and even from Roanoke,

a big city like Roanoke. They would come up here and spend the last year, say if

they graduated from Christiansburg Institute, the standards were so high.

C: [Laughs] Were there discriminations? Were there other, similar schools? Was

it a public school or private school or was there a lack of opportunities for

Blacks in New River Valley, for instance? Were there other schools?

M: This was the only school this side of Roanoke, between Roanoke and Bristol.

C: [Laughs] Between Roanoke and Bristol?

M: Hundred and fifty miles for colored to go to high school. That's the way it 00:05:00was. [Inaudible 5:07] So, we was a boarding school. The reason for that was

because the children, they wasn't in the school and [Inaudible 5:06] and it was

too far to commute.

C: Yes.

M: So, they had to board at the school. In fact, that's the way I met my wife.

She was a student over at the Christiansburg Institute, and that's where we met

and got married April 27, 1927. [Laughs].

C: I hope I can remember. Let me ask you to back up a little bit. You mentioned

your father went to Iowa. What was the reason for them going to Iowa besides

trying to get employment. Was there-

M: The pay was better and the-

C: The pay was better? Why did they seek out Black? I also understand that the

same agent seemed to be active in the Wake Forest area and was able to solicit

and 00:06:00succeeded in getting people to go Iowa from to the Wake Forest area. What

was taking place in that Buxton area that required Blacks from this far away?

M: The thing of it was, if I'm not mistaken, they paid, I think it was, ten

dollars a week. They paid in Buxton. Where here in Virginia, they were paying

about four or five dollars a week to work in the mine, so almost double the salary.

C: Was there a strike or something that took place?

M: There was a strike in Iowa that's when the men come here and-

C: So, they didn't have any workers for whatever reason.

M: That's right.

C: Were Blacks non-union or union workers in that or you just don't know?

M: I couldn't say. I couldn't tell-

C: You're not sure. Okay, well that's fine. It's better to not know then to say

it in the-

M: I wouldn't say and make a guess at 00:07:00it. I would say they were non-union

because of the whites wouldn't admit the negros to most unions

C: That's right.

M: Railroads, anything couldn't-

C: That's true. That is true.

M: They couldn't belong to it. Well, my dad went out there and he, I recall, he was-

C: Did the whole family go or did he go initially?

M: Well my mother and my sister-

C: So they both went?

M: All three of them went.

C: Okay, so all three of them.

M: My sister was one year old when they left. So, the three of them went. I was

born in 1908 and my brother, 1914. So, my dad had very little education as

people in those days didn't have much--well, a lot of them didn't have grade

school education. He never went any further than about the third or fourth

grade, but he had what you called mother wit. And the man-

C: What is a mother wit for those of- [laughs]

M: A mother wit is what the good lord gave you. You wasn't educated. You just

had 00:08:00it in your head. You understand what I'm saying?

C: Yes. [Laughs].

M: Natural talent. So, this Ben Buxton asked my dad how he would like to be the

postmaster in Buxton. He owned the town, and my daddy told him, I never went

very far in school. And he said, I don't know if I can handle the job or not.

So, Ben Buxton told him, if you take the job, he said, I'll see that you get it

because this is my town. [Laughter]. It was 1905, if I can recall. 1905 Ben

Buxton made him postmaster, which a Black man being a postmaster? Never heard of

such a thing. So, he was always so proud of that. He was a president under

Theodore Roosevelt. I 00:09:00worked with mail services, also. I was one of the under FD

Roosevelt. My dad was postmaster under Theodore Roosevelt. When you get to be

postmaster, they give you this big seal of the United States with your name

printed on it and everything and the president signs it to be the postmaster.

And my dad was so proud of it. He had it hanging up in our front room, hanging

up on our wall in our front room because he was so proud of the job. And so they

stayed out there, as I said, until after World War I. And my mother's health

failed, so we decided she wanted to come back home. So we came back to

Christiansburg. When I went to Christiansburg Institute for the ninth trade,

that year my mother had a brother that lived in Detroit, and she wanted to go up

and visit him for a while. We went to Detroit. I spent one year at Cass

Technical High School. It's still up there in Detroit. I went up there one year.

And so I came back here, and when we got back here, I 00:10:00was eligible for the

graduating class over here. So, I have started my family and all. [Laughs] It

might be a little comical, but I was out of school about fifteen years. And I

saw that I needed more. My family was growing, getting larger. I had three

children, and I saw I had to do a little better than what I was doing. So, I

went to Christiansburg Institute and finished at the Institute. As I said, I had

three of my children [who] were sitting in the front seat watching me graduate.

A lot of people laughed about it, so after that I said I was 00:11:00going to try to get

into the mail service like my daddy did. I took the examination and passed it

and was a railway mail clerk. I worked there for about thirty-eight years.

C: What area? Where was-

M: I worked from Washington to Bristol on a train.

C: Oh, I see.

M: Yeah they called it the railway post office. You've seen those-

C: Oh, yeah.

M: So, I run on that for thirty-eight years, on the road. My wife, we had this

little business for forty-eight years, and my wife--I'd be away from home

sometime a week at a time--and my wife would run the business for me.

C: What was the business, by the way?

M: Burrell's. That was the name of it. Burrell's Restaurant. And I had a taxi

service. Oh, I didn't tell you about the taxi service, too. I had an uncle who

was a taxi man here. Incidentally, the name 00:12:00Morgan in the taxi world is at least

a hundred years old. I can trace it that far. My uncle Henry was a taxi man many

years ago when they had horses and buggies.

C: So Henry Morgan?

M: Henry Morgan. I messed his name up. I wanted, like most kids, I wanted to

drive an automobile. I told my dad I'd like to drive a cab. So after we went to

Detroit, my mother had this brother in Detroit. I told him about my desire to

drive a cab, so he told me, he said, I'll see what I can do. He said, we'll go

right down to the Ford place, and I'll get you a brand new car. And he said,

half the car is going to belong to my sister, he said, but the other half I am

going to sell you. He said, you're going to have to pay for yours. So, I 00:13:00 was

tickled pink with that. So, that's why I got into the taxi business.

C: You still kept up your job with the railroad?

M: That's right, yeah. In other words, see, when you started out, you started

out as a substitute. You just go when they call you. It would maybe be a week or

two weeks before they even give me a trip. So, I had to have something. The

family had to eat.

C: Oh, I see.

M: My family got a pretty good size. Then I moved into this building over there,

just as the depression hit, I moved in at the meantime. We owned the store where

color people--they couldn't go into these white restaurants to get a sandwich or

nothing like that, you 00:14:00 know.

[Break in recording]

M: So I had the only place that negros anywhere, well between here and Roanoke,

that negros could come and sit down.

C: There was no place in Blacksburg like that?

M: We had a little dance hall downstairs. They'd come down and play piccolo. We

had two or three live bands to come by. I had the entertainment center of the

Black race.

C: In fact, I talked to somebody else and said that you had people from all

over. What kind of music did they play? Was it bluegrass or was it all kinds of jazz?

M: No. Never heard of bluegrass. [Laughs]

C: Never heard of it?

M: No. Not in that time, I mean. They played like Louis Armstrong, Duke

Ellington. These people-

C: Were they professional type-

M: You heard of Duke Ellington have you?

C: Yes.

M: He been on VPI not long ago.

C: Yes.

M: He was a wonderful man.

C: But he came to your club?

M: Oh no, no, no. He never did that.

C: [Laughs].

M: 00:15:00I had his records on the machines.

C: Oh, I see. What kind of caliber musicians? Were these professional musicians

that would come on occasions?

M: Well, my wife had a brother who lived out near Bluefield, and he belonged to

a band and got a family up there. He got them to come down here--and ordinarily

we couldn't stand a big band like that--we got them to come down here. And one

of the colored bands in Roanoke, Lockliear was the name of it, and they enjoyed

coming up here as much as we did having them come. So, we didn't have no trouble

getting the band. Maybe they'd come by once a month or something like that. And

we had a cultural center and a bunch of [inaudible 15:42] outside of the

churches, the only place colored folks had to come to was to my place of

business. Come to Burrell's. We're going to Burrell's tonight. Or we go up there

and have a good time. And ain't nobody had anything, just a little money. 00:16:00Put a

nickel in a [Inaudible 16:01] and enjoy yourselves. In other words, the white

man forced them to build my business because they couldn't go in these places.

C: Did you sell beer or alcohol in these places?

M: One of the first ones in town to sell-

C: Did you have any problems getting that license?

M: No. See, the way it was, I used to sell Nehi beverages, sodas. And so when

beer became legal, the Nehi man got the distributorship, and when it got legal,

he came in one day with a canvas cover over his pop and beer was becoming legal.

So, that's how he put my first beer and bought my first beer. I wasn't able to

buy but two or three cases at a time. By the time he come back I ain't have

enough money [Laughs], 00:17:00and that's why I had gotten into the business. If it

hadn't been for the [beer] business, I couldn't stay in business the way things

worked. It was the only place they could come and sit down and enjoy themselves.

Anybody you talk to could tell you how strict my wife was. If you've ever met my

wife, she's very strict. She didn't like to have no foolishness at all, and I

always told the boys, if you come to my place of business, Imma let you know

that, just like your mother or sister was in here. That's the kind of place we

ran. My wife, she had a strict hand. One way we kept good on 'em, we had a list

of those who misbehaved and didn't know how to act and get in trouble. And we

black listed them and wouldn't let them come in the place for a year. Oh, it

just killed them.

C: [Laughs].

M: It did! [Laughs]. 00:18:00I tell you, this boy come in there one time, and he showed

off. Wanted to curse and use bad language and all that sort of stuff. So, we

blacklisted him. So, he came up on there one day, and [the] boys come up there

to my wife. And one of the boys said, let's go in Burrell's and get a beer. So,

they all got out [of] the car and come on in, and this other boy sat in the car,

you know. The boys turned around and looked at him and said, oh that's right you

can't go in Burrell's can you? And you'd like to kill them. [Laughter]. Like I

said we tried to run a clean place, no monkey business. We may made a lot of

little hearts happy that didn't have no money. I said between my place outside

of the church and the minstrel show called Silas Green that used to come once a

year--those the two biggest entertainment people had in this-

C: Minstrel show called Silas Green-

M: Cialis Green from New Orleans.

C: [Laughs].

M: It was a clean, tent show. 00:19:00It was owned by colored people. In fact, the girl

from Christiansburg joined Silas Green here, and she just passed last week.

Anybody around here ask about Silas Green, you say, all I can tell you is Silas

Green New Orleans. They had the show and they would come on down to my place and

have a little dance down there. Like I said, nobody had them-

C: When do they normally come to the area? What time of the year?

M: About August.

C: About August?

M: About August. Yeah, because when they would come--that part of July--when

they would come, I would always say, well the summer's gone now. Silas Green's

here. [Laughs]. We really enjoyed it, had a good time off a little of nothing.

C: [Laughs]. Let me ask you a question that came up a few minutes 00:20:00ago. You

mentioned that your father's brother and your mothers' brother both lived in Detroit?

M: No, my mother's brother lived-

C: Lived in Detroit.

M: That's right. Now, I went to [Inaudible 20:08] one year.

C: Oh, okay. Why did he end up living in Detroit? What was he doing? What kind

of employment?

M: He worked at the millionaires club, had a uniform and everything. He was a

bachelor, never did marry. He, I believe it was--actually I'm not sure--maybe it

was Detroit Motor Club. But, it was a first class place. You had to be a member

to come in it, and you couldn't get in it without it. My uncle wore his uniform,

captain and everything all the time. He was the doorman.

C: Were there a lot of people in this area going to places 00:21:00like Detroit?

M: Oh, it was an exodus.

C: How did that happen and why were they encouraged to go to Detroit?

M: Segregation run by the South.

C: What were some of the problems that blacks were having in terms of unemployment?

M: You just couldn't get anything, and they didn't pay anything. I can remember

when Henry Ford came out, and everyone talking about Henry Ford paid the four

dollars a day. Never heard nothing like that round here. I had an uncle that

worked on a farm around here that paid a dollar a day to work on a farm. Go to

Detroit, work for four dollars a day. That was big money compared to what other

folks had. The fellas worked on a farm a dollar a day and worked from daylight

to dust. Wasn't no six o'clock quitte, no 6:30 quitters. You worked as long as

you could see your work. The economic situation was definitely bad, so that

means there was a real exodus to Chicago and Detroit, were the two of the

biggest places. And they were just 00:22:00beginning to come back South again.

C: Were there incentives for people to go? I mean, besides the money. You

mentioned that in the case of the mine strike in Iowa, industrial agents came

down. Did they do that for other industries?

M: I can't particularly say yes or no on that. But, I would say so many people

would go to Detroit, and then they would write back home and tell them, mom and

dad look how good I'm doing, come on up. And a lot of them just bring their

whole families. They didn't have nothing in the south anyway. They take the

whole family and move up there.

C: So, word of mouth was the main advertisement?

M: That's right. That would be the biggest thing. People that you knew come in

contact with doing so well, and there's people doing that right now, come from

the South that I know.

C: Let me ask you another question. You said that you got a car. I mean, wasn't

that unusual for a Black 00:23:00person to have a car that early?

M: Very true, very true. Wasn't too many white people that had one.

C: Was there resentment that this Black, that you-

M: No. See, I was giving cab service.

C: So, there was no resentment?

M: No. They didn't mind me being a servant.

C: [Laughs]. But if you had your own personal car just driving up and down the road?

M: That's different. There are some steps of resentment then. That's right.

Seems silly, but that's the way it was. And-

C: Did you have Black and white clientele when you were-

M: Yes we did. My uncle Henry, he worked for Liverstay. I guess you know what

Liverstay is.

C: Yes.

M: And they had horses, and he had two spotted horses, just the prettiest things

you ever seen. And his duty was to drive from Christiansburg town to the

station, to the station a mile from town. You know the-

C: Was it Cambria?

M: Cambria, that's right. See, Cambria actually used to be a separate town-

C: Right, right.

M: 00:24:00Christiansburg took it over.

C: Um-hm.

M: His job was to meet these trains and take passengers from the trains to the

hotel. And these salesmen would come in like that and spend the night and next

morning, go catch the train and go to Roanoke or some other place like that. His

job was to meet those trains regularly. He was working for a white man which was

fine, you know. I don't know how many years he drove, but he drove so many years

that this man finally went out of business. So, he took it up on his own

individually, and he already had the customers because everybody knew him. They

called him Uncle Henry as a title of respect, you know. They called him-

C: Uncle Henry.

M: Yeah. They called him Uncle Henry to be respectful. They called him Uncle

Henry; everybody called him Uncle Henry. And so that's what got me into the taxi

business too. So, he drove until the 00:25:00last of the automobiles was coming. Like I

said, this white man had this automobile, and he finally got one of [inaudible

25:10]. They had two at one time. So, that's the way he made his living until he

died. He drove that cab. And that's what got me so interested. It'll take a

youngster to drive an automobile.

C: So, the Morgan's have, you know, this long tradition you said.

M: One hundred years, if I can count that far back. In other words, you can go

downtown and ask about Morgan's taxi, you talking about my brother. Because I've

been retired--let's see, I retried in [19]78 from the mail service. And I drove

a cab every morning. My brother took over. He'd been driving until he passed. He

had a heart attack and just died one night [inaudible 25:55].

C: I have been driven by your 00:26:00brother. A couple times my car broke down [Laughter].

M: I bet you have.

C: So, I am very familiar [Laughs] with your service.

M: He said a lot of people--in fact, they might have put it in the paper. It

said that S.B Morgan will be missed around here. He did that much good, you

know. Made a living of it.

C: Was your business and your brother's business the only Black business in

Christiansburg? Or were there many other Black businessmen?

M: Well, about the time I first started driving a car--my cabs because I drove

cabs--I was about sixteen, I think it was. And there used to be a place out here

on Radford Road called Charlie's Filling Station, 00:27:00and he was the first Black

that I know who had any business to speak of. And he was in with some white

people down in Roanoke. This recycling situation that was going on down there,

you hear about it every now and then. This man was working for this man then.

They used to get up and jump and step out from Bluefield and [inaudible 27:33]

Roanoke. And this boy, he got all these white people and he would go around and

pick this stuff up. He was the first negro that I ever knew that got junk by the

carload. I mean, he'd get a whole railroad car. They sent an old railroad car to

Pulaski with whatever he told them to bring in it. He built a filling station

cause [inaudible 27:54-27:56].

C: Okay, we'll stop right here.

[Break in Recording]

C: Okay, we're 00:28:00resuming the interview. You were mentioning a Black businessman

by the name--I think his name is Charlie.

M: Charlie Mathews.

C: Charlie Mathews.

M: That's right. He was the first and the only negro that I know of--Like I

said, he was in the [inaudible 28:15]. He was in the recycling, that's what they

called it. He would buy junk and ship it by the carload. Now he was with white

people in the back. And he built this sterling station [inaudible 28:20-28:24].

And he built this filling station and sold gas out there. Like a drive-in,

actually. That was something new around here. He would drive up. And he would

cook up hams and make ham sandwiches. People from town would drive out there

because it was the only place like that around here.

C: Oh!

M: And he had these two gasoline--I think it was two gasoline pumps--and people

would drive out there in the evenings. They hadn't had food. And they would

drive out here and buy these ham sandwiches and sodas and thangs. And that man-

C: He had white clientele? 00:29:00Black clientele?

M: Both. Oh, definitely.

C: White and black?

M: Yes, indeed. But whites were really the ones who give him the go cause we

didn't have that much. We couldn't buy too many ham sandwiches, you know what I mean?

C: [Laughs].

M: And a lot of those people around here in town would, like I said, in the

evening, they would close the store and would drive out to Charlie's and get a

ham sandwich for the whole family and then go back home. But he was the first

negro that I had known that had money like that with no education. Charlie, you

know, didn't finish on the hill. It ended with the five grades up there. He

didn't finish up there. But, he had a good charm about him, and he knew how to

get along with people. He would pull his hat off and almost bow to the floor and

[laughs] he knew how to get them. A white man was putting up the money and

bagging it. And then of course he got his part out of there. Like I said, it was

the only place like that we had 00:30:00around here. In those days, you didn't have

those drive-in services.

C: And now, several.

M: All over the place.

C: I mean there's sever. I can name one in Roanoke, one on Radford, maybe more.

M: You know where our cemetery is?

C: Um no. Where is it at?

M: It's over in Radford. I was gonna tell you about where his place was. So, he

was smart. That's what I said about mother wit. That's what I'm talking about.

He had mother wit. He could make money. He could just look at a pile of junk and

say, I'll give you so and so for it. And they'll say, oh, I can't take that.

[inaudible 30:41- 30:44] but he'd get that junk, too. Like I said, these white

people was backing him, and he'd be getting this stuff. Like I said, the only

negro I ever knew that'd get the car and fill it up from the Railroad 00:31:00 company.

And he made so much money. He don't know what he made himself. And he had a wife

and three children, and the pity of it is, when he passed, [inaudible 31:19-31:25].

C: Oh.

M: He would gamble. He would go down to Roanoke. And I heard boys say that he

would go down there and gamble. When he'd win, he'd just stick the money down

the back of his shirt. He wouldn't know how much money he had until he got home

and pulled his shirt off.

C: [Laughs].

M: He didn't want all that money get away from him. Apparently, he had money by

the thousands. I'll tell you, when he had passed-

C: When was that by the way?

M: What's that?

C: When did he pass?

M: I can't 00:32:00say the year. Let's see now--I say about when I was--He died before

the [19]30s because I went into business in the [19]30s.

C: I see. This was-

M: This was before that. In fact, he kind of gave me a little idea about going

into business. Cause, like I said, when my family began to grow, I had three

children, and I didn't have enough living with my parents. So, I had to get out

for myself. So I rented this--I don't know if you know what a taxi stand

was--and I runned my cab from up there, and my wife lived 00:33:00upstairs. My wife said

that she thought she could help me. And so in case I got a call or something,

she'd come down stairs and run the store, and I'd come back and we worked it.

This man I was renting from, he told me he wanted to sell me the place. I said,

never mind, because I was scared to buy it. So, he got to the point where he

needed to sell it to me or sell it to somebody. So I had to buy it. He forced me

into it and that's the way I bought the building. So, I just bought the

building. And he told me the downstairs was closed to the folks that'd been

running. You know how folks kinda do things. They're going to run it the ground.

And he got tired of fooling, and he told me why don't I open it up since I had

my cab stand there. So, that's the way I had the cab business down there and the

stool business too. In other words, we gave the color folks enjoyment and the

pleasure that they couldn't otherwise have--[Inaudible 33:51-33:55].

C: What about race relations? Were there any racial incidents? Was there Klan

activity in this 00:34:00area? Or were there any incidents that were kinda bad between

Blacks and whites that you can recall?

M: Well, I can say generally speaking, we had good relations in Christiansburg.

Some of these negros around here in our town do things that that they couldn't

get away with further south, but generally speaking, racial relations were

pretty good.

C: So there was no Klan-

M: Let's see. We had a parade in New Haven-

C: Oh, yeah.

M: Near Blacksburg, you know.

C: Oh, yeah but those were just outside.

M: That's right.

C: But no people were born in this area.

M: No, we didn't have any trouble like that.

C: Oh, that's interesting. Are you familiar with the mine activities in this

area? You mentioned that your father worked in the mines. Did he work in the

mines 00:35:00when he came back to this area or did he do something else?

M: No, no. When he came back here, he worked for the N.W. [North Western]

Railway. He worked at the shops down in Roanoke.

C: Did many blacks work in the shops at Roanoke?

M: Yes, quite a few. But my understanding about joining unions, they wouldn't

let them. No negros joined those unions. And you couldn't never be promoted. You worked-

C: So, you were always an unskilled worker?

M: That's right.

C: You never get semi skills.

M: That's right. You couldn't be a conductor or nothing like that on a train.

You had to belong to a union to do that, and they wouldn't let you join a union.

So, they had to let you stay right where you were.

C: Where did Black people mainly live in Christiansburg? Were there kind of

areas that were kind of Black areas. Or, Cambria too?

M: Actually, where my place of business was the negro section. That was the 00:36:00biggest section.

C: On Depot Street?

M: That's right, Depot Street. You know where you are from that mill? You saw

that mill that you come-

C: Right, right.

M: From there, there are two--one of the tower churches up there in [inaudible 36:15].

C: Up to Schaeffer [Drive] where the high-street.

M: That's right. See, Captain Schaeffer bought that property and the church and

what they called the Hill school. He bought that land for us. That was

[inaudible 36:32] the blacks' own Depot Street.

C: Didn't whites, at that time, still live near black people?

M: Some of them did.

C: What was the relationship between blacks that lived in that predominantly

black area?

M: Well, they were acceptable and wanted to live accepted among them.

C: There was no trouble? There were no friction or incidents?

M: No. Your money would keep you safe here. But you didn't have the money to buy

one of them houses, 00:37:00you couldn't have the money to buy the house what they

called up in the park. You know where the park is?

C: No, no.

M: No.

C: Is that, the park, near the church?

M: It's on the way to the church.

C: It's on its way up to the church?

M: It's right off Main Street. They call it The Park cause of the lawyers and doctors.

C: Oh, yeah. I know where you're talking about. On the other side of--what's the

name of the street that kinda runs--I forgot the name. Where they got them condominiums.

M: Yeah, yeah that's right.

C: Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Yes. You go through that street, and

you'll be right on Main.

M: That's right. I say race relations here were very good all in all.

C: What about services in terms of when y'all need to have trash pickup or fire

service or police protection or what have you? In the past, was there any problems?

M: Not that I know of. Paid your bills and you got your service.

C: That's good. Okay. 00:38:00When you had the beginning of desegregation with the 1954

court decision Brown v. Board of Education, was there any reaction among the

whites to that development? Was that felt through this community? Or, not much

was said about it?

M: Well, yes it was something was said about it all right. [Laughs] But they

couldn't help it. In fact, I know the man who was the superintendent of the

schools here quit.

C: What was his name?

M: He's been gone now. What was his name.

C: But he quit?

M: Yeah, he quit. And some of the white people was teasing him about it saying,

you running away from it ain't you? [Inaudible 38:57] And he quit the

superintendent. He didn't want to face it. [Laughs] Yeah, they teased him about

it. 00:39:00Wasn't no hard feelings about it. No more than usual, I don't think. You

see, when they closed--I don't know if you've seen this little marker out here.

C: I believe I'd seen a marker, yes.

M: Go head and read it before you get in the car.

C: But, I've never read it; I've seen it.

M: You should read it. Several people come by and took pictures of it. It tells

about Christiansburg Institute was closed in 1966, and it was built in 1866. It

is a hundred year old boarding school. The funny part about it is now, 00:40:00when they

first broke the thing down and decided they gonna have to have it, they wanted

to accept this let you, by choice, if you wanted to come up to the white school

you could. If you wanted to stay at the Black school, you could. That's the way

they got around it. Just a few of them. A lot of them, in fact, were scared to

go up there. That's the way they first got them both. It got along pretty good,

come more and more. They wanted to integrate. They wanted to take Christiansburg

Institute and integrate it. You know what the white people said? They said they

wouldn't go over to the Black school.

C: [Laughs].

M: That's the way they felt about it. 00:41:00And they turned right around and sold this

property and come right here and build a high school right up there. That was

all Christiansburg Institute. Probably had 165 acres, and now you see all these

condominiums and things. They offered to let the whites come over here or we

come over there and then turned right around after they sold it and built a high school.

C: Is that property that the Christiansburg high school, is that part of the

property that Mr. Schaeffer owned at one time?

M: Yeah. The Institute.

C: Oh, the Institute?

M: Yeah. Christiansburg Institute. See he-

C: But they didn't want to refurbish Christiansburg Institute or the didn't want

to build on to it?

M: No, no, no. Like I said, they said you can come to us, but we won't come to 00:42:00 you.

C: Which was nothing unusual at that time.

M: That's right.

C: Was there any politicians who, local politicians, who denounced desegregation

in this area publicly? Orr were they fairly quiet?

M: I think it was fairly quiet, I would say.

C: The mayor didn't come out and-

M: No.

C: Except for the superintendent who resigned-

M: Resigned, yeah.

C: He was the only one who took a really kinda public stand?

M: Yeah there was a whole lot of under cover, of course.

C: That's interesting. Well, talk a little about social organizations in this

area because you mentioned your establishment, the business establishment, and

the churches. What about the Odd Fellows?

M: They were up on Depot Street, the Odd Fellows and the Ruths' used to be in

the same place.

C: The Household of Ruth?

M: That's right. Just about a block from where my place is. It was right in

there. Used to be a man, we called him Tim. He used to be a presser. Tim the

presser used to have a presser shop. And another fella owned the store name Buck

Clark. That was a little bit before my 00:43:00time. What I'm talking about is when I

came around here. More or less, Depot Street was the epicenter of Black activity.

C: Could you talk about the activities of the Odd Fellows or some of the people

who were the members of the Odd Fellows?

M: I knew my mother belonged to the Ruths and my dad belonged to the Odd Fellows

and I never joined either one

C: They never signed you up for any-

M: No, I was asked to join, but I never did.

C: Is it still functioning?

M: No, I don't know exactly. I know they tore the building down, and I think

Blacksburg--yeah Blacksburg--started coming over here. And I think now they are

going to Roanoke. 00:44:00In fact, we had some up the church. The Ruth tried to build

down there. That's right.

C: What kind of activities did they engage in with people who were connected

with these fraternal orders, men and women organizations? What kind of

activities were they into? Do you remember what your father and mother were

involved in at all? Or you just weren't part of that?

M: Oh, I know they just went to the meetings.

C: You never went to the meetings?

M: No, we couldn't go in it.

C: They didn't allow children at the meetings?

M: Oh, no, no, no. They wouldn't have me. Yeah, once a year they'd parade and go

to the church, one little church. I think they used to go to one church one

year, one church the next year--Methodist church and a Baptist church. But, I

remember they used to have turnout. They used to call it The Turnout once a year.

C: The Turnout?

M: 00:45:00Yeah, Turnout [Inaudible 45:00].

C: Really? I guess we have covered all the significant questions. Anything you

like to add before we close?

M: Well, let's see I guess I took up an hour. You're familiar with the Institute?

C: Yes, I am.

M: I was gonna tell you. I told you about this book You Never Go Back To Buxton.

It's in your library over there.

C: You Never Go Back To Buxton?

M: That's right You Never Return to Buxton.

C: Well, I'm gonna go to the library and find out about it

M: It's there. It's interesting. Let's see, I can't think of anything right now

that might be of interest.

C: Well, I know you will get back to me when you think of something

M: Oh, yeah.

C: I'd like to thank you for your 00:46:00 cooperation.

M: Put a little light on.

C: Yeah, you've shed a lot of light on. Thanks a lot. Okay, we'll end.

M: [inaudible 46:07] when the change was there.

C: Well, that's the most important.

M: I told you this picture was taken in Buxton. This was my daddy's dog. See

that rope there? My daddy used to run, he used to run [inaudible 46:20-46:24].

This dog here was so vicious. He's got that rope like to tie horses over there.

C: Yeah, that's a big rope.

M: He used to jump. He would jump over top of this fence and go out on the road

and kill other dogs. That's the only thing they could do with him. My mother got

her hand ahold of him trying to keep him from getting away. 00:47:00Terrible forever.

C: [Laughs]. Well, I've enjoyed it, really enjoyed it. Thank you for your help.

M: Oh, I hope I've given you a little something.

C: You have. Well, we'll end on that note.

[End of Interview]