Oral History with James E. Sherman, March 11, 1991 (Ms1991-019)

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Today is March 11, 1991, and I’m conducting an interview with James E. Sherman of Blacksburg, Virginia. Although, this is not really Blacksburg?
James Sherman: This is.
Michael Cooke: In mailing address, but we’re really in the county.
James Sherman: Yeah, the county.
Michael Cooke: And we’re in the Wake Forest community.
James Sherman: Yeah. Right.
Michael Cooke: Could you give us a brief sketch of your life? Your birthdate, birthplace, education and occupations?
James Sherman: Yes. I was born in 1923 in Wake Forest, Virginia, and I was born December 22, 1923. And the seventh child of a bunch of fourteens [00:49].
Michael Cooke: [Laughs]. Fourteens.
James Sherman: From [inaudible 0:57], yes. We all grew up, in fact all of my brothers, which were ten or nine ‘cause I was seventh. We all [inaudible 1:05] against the coal mines. Just got out of work. And so I worked there about nine or ten years. After the coal mines were out. We all went to different parts of construction, most of us

Keywords: Blacksburg, Virginia; James E. Sherman; Wake Forest, Virginia; coal mines; community

Subjects: Montgomery County (Va.); Wake Forest, Virginia; coal mines and mining

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Well, we’re going to talk a little bit more about that. I’m very much interested in the mining experience you had. But, let’s talk about your family. I mean, your mother and father.
James Sherman: Um-hm, right. My father, his name was Robert Sherman. He was a coal miner before me. Before that, he was a railroad man. He spent a major part of his life in the coal mines.
Michael Cooke: Did he originally come from this area?
James Sherman: He originated from this area, yes. I’d say, as far as I know, he was born and raised right here in this community.
Michael Cooke: I believe so. I did some preliminary research. I think the Shermans came from the Kent [Kentland] plantation.
James Sherman: Yeah, Kent [inaudible 2:10]
Michael Cooke: Or coalman plantation, whatever. But, James Kent, at one time, gave partials of his slaves to various other relatives.
James Sherman: Right, sure.
Michael Cooke: But originally, I believe they came from the James Kent plantation.
James Sherman: You’re right, yes. I haven’t really checked to make sure, but I think you are right about that. And my mother was a Paige.
Michael Cooke: Oh.
James Sherman: Yeah, she was a Paige.
Michael Cooke: Paige is another major family in this area.
James Sherman: A major family in this area, yes. And she was born in the place back here, back in the mountain area, and I forget what they called it. I think they called it [inaudible 3:05] or something.
Michael Cooke: It’s just a couple miles away from this area?
James Sherman: Yeah. About a mile back farther in the mountain.
Michael Cooke: Okay.
James Sherman: And they, after the first—this was given to Blacks. They all kind of moved to this area, you see? Most of them, they moved all around, scattered around. One or two back in the mountain area. One or two back up this way. And a few just stuck around in different places. But after they started coal mining, you might say, people started coming up here in a some kind of form you, you know you might say.
Michael Cooke: Right, there’s a pattern now.

Keywords: James Kent; Kent Plantation; Kentland farms; Paige; Robert Sherman; coal miner; father; mother; railroad man

Subjects: Kentland Farm; Railroad; Slavery--United States; coal mines and mining

Partial Transcript: James Sherman: A pattern. Yeah, right. So my dad lived to be seventy-six. He retired from the coal mines.
Michael Cooke: What mines did he work in? Local ones?
James Sherman: He did some work away in the coal mines, I believe.
Michael Cooke: Okay, let’s say out of state?
James Sherman: Out of state.
Michael Cooke: Probably West Virginia?
James Sherman: West Virginia. Yeah, close to the border of Virginia. Yes.
Michael Cooke: Did he also work in this area?
James Sherman: He worked, I’d say, about twenty-five years right here in this mine.
Michael Cooke: Which one?
James Sherman: Used to call it Big Vein.
Michael Cooke: Oh so he didn’t work in Great Valley?
James Sherman: Yes! He worked in Great Valley first.
Michael Cooke: Oh he did?
James Sherman: Yeah. He worked on sight, Great Valley. That was his first mine. I might not be correct on that, but anyhow, I have the understanding that he opened this last Big Vein mine. He and several other people, you know, were the first ones to start opening the coal. And, of course, he slowed down in work here. He went back to Great Valley to work some. And then he worked his last eight or ten years in Big Vein mine with me. Yeah.
Michael Cooke: Oh so you were with him?
James Sherman: I worked right on with him. Maybe not beside him, but in the same...
Michael Cooke: Same mine.
James Sherman: Yeah. And at the same time, I had several other brothers that worked right there with us, you know.

Keywords: Big Vein; Great Valley; West Virginia; coal mines

Subjects: coal mines and mining

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Well before we go into your mining experience, what about education opportunities in this area? What kind of schooling did they commit [to] Blacks during the period you were growing up?
James Sherman: Well, I remember...next to my oldest sister, she went to West Virginia. You had to leave here to get anything beyond an elementary school education, you know. Along about the same time that she went to West Virginia, I noticed that there was a school in Christiansburg, the…
Michael Cooke: Christiansburg Institute?
James Sherman: Christiansburg Institute! Christiansburg Industrial Institute. C. I. I. That’s what they used to call it. I know I had a cousin that had an opportunity to go there, and that was the first educational opportunity that I know of that we had.
Michael Cooke: But it was difficult because it was so far away.
James Sherman: Yeah. Right.
Michael Cooke: Because did they have any buses or anything taking people? If you wanted to go-
James Sherman: In the beginning there were no buses. You had to go and you had to [inaudible 6:50] if there was room. You know, if they had room-
Michael Cooke: But people all over the place were going to-
James Sherman: Coming. Yeah, right. All over Virginia.
Michael Cooke: All over Virginia.
James Sherman: Yeah.
Michael Cooke: Because there was so little high school education opportunities.
James Sherman: I know people used to drive from Petersburg, Lexington, Covington.
Michael Cooke: I heard talk of people as far as West Bristol, going the other way.
James Sherman: Bristol? Sure. Bristol, yeah. [inaudible 7:12] down coming through that area, you know. Right. It seemed like we had a few educational opportunities in West Virginia. And that was my first knowledge of opportunity to get an education.

Keywords: Bristol; C. I. I.; Christiansburg Industrial Institute; Christiansburg Institute; Covington, Virginia; Lexington, Virginia; Petersburg, Virginia; West Virginia; education opportunities; elementary school education; high school education opportunities; schooling

Subjects: Christiansburg Industrial Institute; Primary Education; Secondary Education

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: What education would they provide for elementary school? Like let’s say if you wanted to go to grade school, did they have a school in the community?
James Sherman: Yes. Well, it was in walking distance. Of course, it was just for the community. It was called the Wake Forest Elementary School. It taught to the seventh grade, I think.
Michael Cooke: Where was it located?
James Sherman: It was located at the very edge of this community here.
Michael Cooke: Just right after you turn off 696.
James Sherman: Route 696. Right. At the intersection 696 and 652 right and so. Just about all the children ten years older than myself and older than that because they start here in school. I remember the old county school used to stand down below that, just a one room school I believe.
Michael Cooke: Oh, so they didn’t build a new school?
James Sherman: Yeah. They built a new school. A two room school. Right nice for that period of time, you know, and it had only, as far as I can remember, one teacher. One teacher is all they had.
Michael Cooke: Did that teacher live in the community or did he or she commute?
James Sherman: They would mostly have somebody commute to be able to [inaudible 9:04].
Michael Cooke: So that was north? I guess it was also because of transportation if they didn’t have a car or it might be a bigger problem.
James Sherman: Yes, true. And when they put the roadway in, it was real bad, you see.
Michael Cooke: Oh, were they paved?
James Sherman: No, no paved.
Michael Cooke: It was not paved.
James Sherman: I don’t know how close the paving come, but it wasn’t paved out beyond the school there no.
Michael Cooke: So that made things real difficult.
James Sherman: Right.
Michael Cooke: So even if there had been a school bus there was no way to get to people, to parts of the community. Like up here, they wouldn’t have been able to get up here.
James Sherman: Right, right. That was the new [inaudible 9:38] from the high school days, you know. Yeah, but during my elementary school days, the bus couldn’t have gotten in here cause these roads [inaudible 9:45-9:50].
Michael Cooke: No way.
James Sherman: Right. In fact, all the children my age and younger—I don’t remember much actually. The last children that went to that school out here, but they finally got an elementary school in Blacksburg.
Michael Cooke: Oh, yes where the middle school is located.
James Sherman: Middle school, right.
Michael Cooke: Actually there was a Black school there. The middle school is a new building.
James Sherman: I think the middle school is a new property.
Michael Cooke: Right because there was a Black school there and they tore that down and built-
James Sherman: The one school. I believe the other elementary school at that time, the one they built for all the Blacks in a twenty mile…
Michael Cooke: Are you talking about Harding Avenue [Elementary School]?
James Sherman: Harding, that’s right.
Michael Cooke: They had the Harding Avenue school as the school for all the Blacks. I guess this before they finally desegregated totally. Kind of like an intermediate step. First, it was no big schools, then they consolidated and had a big school for Blacks, and eventually they started having Blacks integrating the schools. Did your children participate in that process?
James Sherman: Right. Well, my children started at...some of them completed their education in the Harding Avenue Elementary School, their elementary education. I believe the Prices Fork elementary school was mostly integrated after the Harding school because it was-
Michael Cooke: That’s the closest school.
James Sherman: That’s the closest school right now, yeah. And that’s where the elementary children go first now, to Prices Fork.
Michael Cooke: I see.
James Sherman: Then after age six or seven, they go to middle school.
Michael Cooke: To middle school. That’s interesting.

Keywords: Blacksburg, Virginia; Harding Avenue Elementary School; Prices Fork Elementary School; Route 652; Route 696; Wake Forest Elementary School; bus; commute; elementary school; grade school; integration; one-room school; roadway; seventh grade; teacher; transportation

Subjects: Blacksburg, Virginia; Montgomery County (Va.); Primary Education

Partial Transcript: James Sherman: There were just a few of us that were able to go to the boarding school at C.I. [Christiansburg Institute] because it was a boarding school, and the owner only had so many and people were coming from all around. But fortunately about six of us, after we stayed out of school a year or two, that we were able to go.
Michael Cooke: Did you go?
James Sherman: I went. I went but I didn’t finish, it’s hard to say. I went there a year and a half, all I went, and I was doing fair, I think. I was improving because that was something like you’re speaking about going to a place where nobody knows you. Anyhow, after I got used to school, I sort of settled into [inaudible 13:015]. But I dropped out [because] my parents, the money.
Michael Cooke: Well that sounds like a tremendous sacrifice on the part of your family.
James Sherman: Yeah.
Michael Cooke: I mean, just to save up and then, okay we’re going to send him up. You’re talking about several. You talking about two?
James Sherman: I said just one out of my family.
Michael Cooke: Just you?
James Sherman: Yes.
Michael Cooke: But just supporting one because it wasn’t easy because Black people weren’t making a lot of money.
James Sherman: That’s true, and then I went one year and a half and then I dropped out for the sake of my family. Of course, I went back to the CC [Civilian Conservation] camps. I don’t know if you heard-
Michael Cooke: Yeah. The Civilian Conservation Corps.
James Sherman: Yeah
Michael Cooke: This is during the Great Depression?
James Sherman: Right.

Keywords: C. I.; CCC; Christiansburg Industrial Institute; Christiansburg Institute; Civilian Conservation Corps; Great Depression; dropped out; money

Subjects: Christiansburg Industrial Institute; Great Depression

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: So, I mean, that’s another thing, how was life? I mean, I know it must have been extremely tough during the Great Depression.
James Sherman: Right.
Michael Cooke: What kind of conditions existed during this time period for Black people living in this area?
James Sherman: Well, I tell ya, they didn’t have a lot of money. The jobs weren’t that permanent or that [inaudible 14:35], you know, a few days work. You might do up to six months and be off work for so many weeks. [inaudible 14:40] you family.
Michael Cooke: That’s basically how many people were underemployed, and you were fortunate if you were underemployed.
James Sherman: I didn’t keep up with the time. My father, I mean, he [inaudible 14:54-14:56] employment. Even during his coal mine days, there was a time, for some reason or another, that slacked off because he had gone and done WPA work.

Keywords: Great Depression; coal mines; conditions; jobs; life; underemployment

Subjects: Coal mines and mining; Great Depression

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Oh, so he had to work on WPA? That’s Work Project [Progress] Administration.
James Sherman: Right.
Michael Cooke: So you worked with the Civilian Conservation Corp, and he worked with the WPA.
James Sherman: Yeah.
Michael Cooke: What kind of work did he do and what kind of work did you do in terms of...what kind of work did he do for the WPA?
James Sherman: The main work for WPA was roadwork. [Inaudible 15:30]. digging a ditch, building roads.
Michael Cooke: Do you remember some of the areas he helped build?
James Sherman: Mostly right here in the community because they worked for months. If you could see this place out here, it’s a field right beyond the top of the hill where you turn in right there.
Michael Cooke: Okay, I’ll look for it when I go.
James Sherman: All right. If you go out, you’d turn right and go to the top of the hill. But you can see right over there that hill and those men, first with crowbars, picks, and shovels dug out the back on each top of each hill there and cleared it to that thing, to the hollow. They filled that thing in just enough.
Michael Cooke: Filled in the hollow?
James Sherman: Filled it in. I think the best they could come up with with the rebar was a walkway across the hollow. They somehow put this big drain pipe in and then they would just wheel it. I think it was a great thing. The WPA [inaudible 16:33-16:37]
Michael Cooke: It was good. Was the problem with drainage before that time before they did this?
James Sherman: No problem there for draining. No just a problem. You didn’t know from this part of the community to that part.
Michael Cooke: Oh, it was just disconnected.
James Sherman: Yes.
Michael Cooke: So, in other words they filled in an area so both parts of the community can be connected. Oh, I got you.
James Sherman: The only connection you had was walking across, you know the path going across.
Michael Cooke: But nobody could drive across?
James Sherman: Nobody could drive across.
Michael Cooke: Nobody could get an ox cart or anything across.
James Sherman: Well, you could go back in the mountain further before going across.
Michael Cooke: [Laughs]. That sounds like a lot of work.
James Sherman: And people couldn’t move cars back there, and that was the end of it. Riding, that was the end of it when you get back in the mountains.
Michael Cooke: [Laughs]. So, yeah. This sounds like they really improved the area.
James Sherman: Yeah they did.

Keywords: WPA; Works Progress Administration; Works Projects Administration; building roads; road work

Subjects: Great Depression; Roads; WPA

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: That’s great. What kind of work did the Civilian Conservation Corp, I mean, the work you were doing.
James Sherman: We had to dress up the [inaudible 17:34] along the parkways and keep the banks and things dressed up, you know, and fill in. Mostly it was just forestry-like type work, you know. Foresting and flowers and park areas and things like that.
Michael Cooke: So in other words-
James Sherman: Firefighters was number one.
Michael Cooke: You all fought fires?
James Sherman: Fought fire. We were trained to fight fire.
Michael Cooke: And did you all get sent out there.
James Sherman: Many times.
Michael Cooke: What areas did you go?
James Sherman: Now, this camp was in Galax, [Virginia]. That’s where I began.
Michael Cooke: Oh you were in Galax? So you’re not even in the community?
James Sherman: No. I had to leave out of the community to be a part of the CCC—
Michael Cooke: Your father stayed in his community?
James Sherman: Yes.
Michael Cooke: But you had to go?
James Sherman: I had to go out.
Michael Cooke: Did any of your brothers work with the Civilian Conservation Corp?
James Sherman: I had two older brothers that was in there, yeah.
Michael Cooke: Which two were they?
James Sherman: They’re both deceased now. Older brother Arthur Robert Sherman. He must have been about a year in the CCC. And then my brother Wallace Jasper Sherman, deceased also. He spent about a year in that, too.
Michael Cooke: What locations were-?
James Sherman: Arthur was in, for a time, in Fort Meade. [inaudible 19:11-19:16]
Michael Cooke: That’s a long way from here.
James Sherman: Oh yeah. And Wallace was in [inaudible 19:23] Langley field airway or something.
Michael Cooke: In Virginia?
James Sherman: In Virginia, yes.
Michael Cooke: Oh, all over the place.
James Sherman: So it was a couple teenagers that went in, yeah.
Michael Cooke: So there were no work for teenagers. No work for adults.
James Sherman: No work. No work here.

Keywords: Arthur Robert Sherman; CCC; Civilian Conservation Corp; Galax, Virginia; Langley field; Wallace Jasper Sherman; firefighters; forestry work; national parks; park areas

Subjects: CCC; Great Depression

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Did Big Vein virtually shut down and Great Valley virtually shut down during the Depression?
James Sherman: No, they both...struggled though.
Michael Cooke: Struggled yeah.
James Sherman: Finally, the coal boom market during the late [19]40s.
Michael Cooke: Yeah, during the war.
James Sherman: Right.
Michael Cooke: Because they had needed all kinds of fuel and supplies.
James Sherman: They really gave good work at that time. That’s the only time I can remember that people had steady work. I come out of the CCC camps, and I went to do that about six months. Just doing little jobs around [inaudible 20:26] gardening. Then I went back to my jobs at the mines.
Michael Cooke: Did you ever serve in the military?
James Sherman: Yes, I worked at the mines about seven or nine months. In 1943, I was drafted-
Michael Cooke: Into the service.
James Sherman: Into the armed forces. The army.
Michael Cooke: The army.
James Sherman: Yeah, the army. And I served for three and a half years...lets see [19]43 to [19[46]...not quite three...Two and a nine months.
Michael Cooke: You count that long enough? [Laughs]. That’s long enough.
James Sherman: Yeah. It was two years and nine months, not even three years.
Michael Cooke: Yeah, I believe you know it now. Two years, nine months, and I’m glad I’m out of there.
James Sherman: Yes sir. I sort of had [inaudible 21:25-21:30] and come out 1960.
Michael Cooke: You could have ended in Korea too, though.
James Sherman: That’s what I was afraid of. That’s why I was glad I came back because that’s what was happening. They would just send the troops. Told me they wanted me to stay. They needed me to go out there and train troops. [inaudible 21:53-21:56].

Keywords: Army; Great Valley; Korea; Second World War; WWII; World War II; coal boom; draft

Subjects: Coal mines and mining; Great Depression; World War II

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Yeah. You never know. Well, let’s see. Were there any whites that lived in this area? And how were relations between Blacks and whites, here or close to Roanoke.
James Sherman: Naturally, we weren’t integrated in school, but the relations was very good, I thought. Neither race—our standard people you might say—with the opportunity that we had, we just didn’t know what you could have known, you know. Other than that, we had a pretty good relationship.
Michael Cooke: And where were the nearest whites to this community?
James Sherman: The nearest whites, you might say, were just right around the East and mainly Long Shop down here.
Michael Cooke: Oh, yeah Long Shop.
James Sherman: Yeah and McCoy.
Michael Cooke: McCoy.
James Sherman: Right.
Michael Cooke: If you had to compare the whites of Long Shop versus the whites of McCoy, did you have less problems with one community than the other? Or was there more friction with one community than the other? If you had to give a sense of, well this community was a little more friendlier than this community, could you make that kind of judgement?
James Sherman: I would say that we were real acquainted with the McCoy community. Yes. Because we would go out to buy supplies and groceries-
Michael Cooke: That’s where you did your shopping?
James Sherman: Yeah. Yes.
Michael Cooke: Although Long Shop is not that far.
James Sherman: No, it’s close.
Michael Cooke: It’s actually closer?
James Sherman: It’s closer than where we had to do the shopping.
Michael Cooke: Why didn’t you shop in Long Shop when that’s closer?
James Sherman: Well my father, he was more acquainted with the merchants in McCoy. They seemed to be, you know-
Michael Cooke: They seemed to be fair?
James Sherman: Yeah.
Michael Cooke: So you know based on fairness, you go an extra mile, maybe.
James Sherman: Right because this man here would extend credit way on up, you know, and he would carry your through-
Michael Cooke: Do you remember the man’s name?
James Sherman: Mr. Earnest McCoy.
Michael Cooke: Earnest McCoy.
James Sherman: Earnest McCoy. Yeah and there was also another gentleman down there...I don’t know what his...man’s name. But there were three stores down there [inaudible 25:02], Scott’s, and [inaudible 25:04]. I reckon you could get a honest person to credit-
Michael Cooke: If you were trustworthy, you would pay your debts, and you seemed to be honorable, then you got along.
James Sherman: Right. Then also, now I have to say Long Shop there were people in the community that would move [inaudible 25:24] for people down there. I don’t know how it come about, whether this family was brought up knowing this white, you know. And my family brought up knowing the whites down there, but anyhow I didn’t think we could get the credit down there in Long Shop that you could.
Michael Cooke: That’s interesting. People would go an extra mile or so to walk in the shop and basically you were talking about what? How would you go there?
James Sherman: Walk.
Michael Cooke: Walk, right. [Laughs]
James Sherman: Down the hollow. Down the hollow, yeah.
Michael Cooke: How often would your family go shopping down to McCoy?
James Sherman: Maybe every two weeks.
Michael Cooke: Every two weeks.

Keywords: Earnest McCoy; Long Shop, Virginia; McCoy, Virginia; credit; debt; grocery; hollow; integrated; merchants; race relations; shopping; stores

Subjects: Grocery Shopping; Race Relations

Partial Transcript: James Sherman: Which I believe my father’s payday was every two weeks. He’d go sometimes he would pay up, and then he’d get groceries. Sometimes he would be able to pay for his groceries and sometimes he charge them, you know. And so then [inaudible 26:43-6:46] that’s about all groceries. I don’t even think he knows—the banks, they were of course [inaudible 27:01] about loaning to people.
Michael Cooke: So you didn’t deal with banks, you dealt with the merchants.
James Sherman: Right.
Michael Cooke: People that you go every two weeks and buy some groceries and they kind of become accustomed to you paying your debts.
James Sherman: Yes. To the best of my knowledge, that's how he borrowed money, cash money.
Michael Cooke: If you needed cash money. Because there was really no bank nearby, even if you wanted to go, where was the nearest bank?
James Sherman: Nearest Bank was in Blacksburg.
Michael Cooke: That’s a long way. Especially, did you get to Blacksburg that often or is that something you did very rarely?
James Sherman: Very rarely for most of us down [inaudible 27:35] began.
Michael Cooke: Yeah until your children going there. But until then, it was just like, it’s over there. That’s where the university is. But did people work over there in this community?
James Sherman: It was very few that done worked as maids, maybe worked at a restaurant or something like that.
Michael Cooke: Especially the maids, were they live in maids or did they actually-?
James Sherman: Yeah, they lived in there.
Michael Cooke: So they didn’t even commute? They’d live in and maybe every once in a while they might come back. Maybe on the weekends or so.
James Sherman: Right, that’s true.
Michael Cooke: But it was never a thing to go back and forth because there was no transportation.
James Sherman: That’s true. No transportation. And like I say, the roads back then [inaudible 28:25-28:28]
Michael Cooke: So, it would have been not smart to even try to do that. So, you were really restricted to working within walking distance from where you lived.
James Sherman: Right.
Michael Cooke: If you couldn’t walk, then you couldn’t work.
James Sherman: That’s right. Just a few years prior to my working days, you know, beginning my work. You had to work quite a bit and you had to walk. In fact, I don’t know any work outside of here like factory or anything like that. Blacks were disconnected, and didn’t engage in that time.
Michael Cooke: Just no factory. There was no powerplant or anything till later.
James Sherman: Later. That’s true-

Keywords: Blacksburg, Virginia; VPI; banks; barrow money; cash money; commute; debt; groceries; loans; maids; payday; powder plant; restaurant; transportation; university

Subjects: Blacksburg, Virginia; Coal mines and mining

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: What kind of work did people do? Did they do anything besides mining or did they farm?
James Sherman: Yes they did. Everybody farmed. They worked on the farm. They would do a [inaudible 29:25] farm.
Michael Cooke: But not in this area? Where would they farm?
James Sherman: Well, they were fortunate enough to have land, they could raise corn.
Michael Cooke: They did do that.
James Sherman: Yeah. And raise chickens and some cows.
Michael Cooke: So did they work for other people outside the area?
James Sherman: Yes, mostly in Long Shop and McCoy, Whitethorne areas [inaudible 29:52] and walk to the post office-
Michael Cooke: How far is Whitethorne from here anyway?
James Sherman: Whitethorne would be—if you go down the hollow it be a mile and a half go around the round, it’d be about two miles.
Michael Cooke: So, it’s not too bad.
James Sherman: No.
Michael Cooke: But that’s a good long way just to get your mail.
James Sherman: True.
Michael Cooke: Did you go everyday to pick up your mail?
James Sherman: Practically everyday.
Michael Cooke: Or did they have it delivered?
James Sherman: No, we finally got a delivery man in the community. Yeah, one of my cousins.
[Break in recording]
Michael Cooke: Okay we’re back on the tape. You said one of your relatives was...was he an official postman or was he designated to do, by the community, that service?
James Sherman: Yes, he was a volunteer then maybe a designated to, you know, carrying mail.
Michael Cooke: Did people in the community pay him?
James Sherman: I believe they…Did they pay him something Marie? [inaudible 31:13]
Marie Sherman: Yeah I think they did.
Michael Cooke: So the community paid him a little bit of money.
James Sherman: [inaudible 31:20] Yeah, and so he [inaudible 31:25] everyday.
Michael Cooke: So he was named Fred?
James Sherman: Frederick Eaves.
Michael Cooke: Frederick Eaves.
James Sherman: Yeah and so he carried it for years until...somebody had taken it later. Had our own scrapbook…
Michael Cooke: Of things that happened?
James Sherman: Of things that happened as they happened. The educational lack was heavy handed, you know.
Michael Cooke: That’s understandable. You got your own things to do. I don’t even have time to pay attention to things of that nature so I wouldn’t fault anybody.
James Sherman: Generally, there would be someone that knew.
Michael Cooke: Yeah.
James Sherman: Now if you traced around though, you’d find somebody that know when the mailboxes were put in there [inaudible 32:20].

Keywords: Frederick Eaves; Long Shop, Virgnia; McCoy, Virginia; Whitethorne, Virginia; chickens; corn; cow; farm work; farming; mail service; mining; postal service; volunteer

Subjects: Wake Forest, Virginia; Work Opportunities

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: But there was no electricity when you were growing up?
James Sherman: Right. I used to study by lamps.
Michael Cooke: You mentioned that during the New Deal when FDR [Franklin D. Roosevelt] was president, he did a lot of things like the Conservation Corp [CCC] and the WPA. Did they also put up electricity for the people who lived here? During that time or was that later?
James Sherman: It had to be during that time.
Michael Cooke: So, rural electrification occurred in this area during the Depression?
James Sherman: Yes.
Michael Cooke: So you had your first electricity?
James Sherman: Yeah I tell you, and I tell you I’m not positive of that.
Michael Cooke: You’re fairly certain.
James Sherman: Yes. Yes.

Keywords: CCC; Civilian Conservation Corp; FDR; Franklin D. Roosevelt; Great Depression; New Deal; WPA; Works Progress Administration; Works Projects Administration; electricity; rural electrification

Subjects: Public Goods and Services; Rural Electrification

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: That's good. Tell us about how you got into mining. Did you just go in there cold turkey? Did your father take you along and say, son this is what you need to do, and did he take you along with him? How did you get into mining?
James Sherman: Well, I had read somehow you had to make several trips over to [inaudible 33:41] this time. Try and get a job. It wasn't easy getting a job at that time, even a place like the Arsenal. But you make several trips [inaudible 33:55-34:03] And they were hiring Blacks of course it was under construction there. [inaudible 34:10-34:23] But I went over to get a job in [19]42.
Michael Cooke: This is the mines or you talking about the powder-
James Sherman: Powder Plant. [inaudible 34:33-34:37] mine now. I believe I got a promise of a job over there [inaudible 34:44], so I was coming back home in [19]46. My daddy said [inaudible 34:52] you can go work down there.
Michael Cooke: Was this Big Vein?
James Sherman: Big Vein right. I promised I wasn't going in the coal mine.
Michael Cooke: You said you wasn't going to work in the coal mines.
James Sherman: Yeah I would not. But if I could have gotten to the powder plant, I would have worked.
Michael Cooke: Why would you have preferred the powder plant over the mines? Because the powder plant was dangerous too.
James Sherman: Yes. [inaudible 35:14]
Michael Cooke: Was the pay better or...?
James Sherman: Pay was a little better at the powder plant, but I went to the mines because of walking distance. I walked-
Michael Cooke: I mean if you had to walk to Big Vein today, how many miles or parts of it-
James Sherman: One mile maybe-
Michael Cooke: Just one mile?
James Sherman: Maybe two fields.
Michael Cooke: That's it? That's a fifteen minute walk. Easily.
James Sherman: You should talk to a few others about it. That's why I went to Big Vein. That's why I went to the coal mine. After I got in there, I liked it. I liked it.
Michael Cooke: Did they pay well?
James Sherman: Mines paid fair. That's the one place you'd get equal pay.
Michael Cooke: It wasn't race there. If you produced one coal or cart, you got one coal cart pay.
James Sherman: Right. That's true.
Michael Cooke: How much did you generally get paid for a coal cart?
James Sherman: When I started, I believe I was getting...it was different rates paid, depending on the place you worked. They had a place called the room where six men worked a machine. Your pay for a car there was, as I recall, a dollar and thirty-five cents.
Michael Cooke: That's working on the machine though.
James Sherman: Yeah. That was exactly like this. You had to load six cars. If you had six men, you had to load six cars. [inaudible 36:56], you see. And in the place that I worked, the scale that I was on was a dollar and ninety-two cents a car. It was a little pay that the machine man got in addition to it the cars they loaded. Beyond what the [inaudible 37:17] the eye was the place where you'd turn the eye before the machine man could even set in. That was basically control the air. They called it the eye. Then you'd go from the eye to the head [inaudible 37:34-37:38] and so the eye and the head were a dollar and ninety-two cents and-
Michael Cooke: Was that the toughest work for that crew? I mean, they had to do a lot of the hard work. Did they get paid because they did harder work?
James Sherman: They had harder work because they had to pick the coal up and put it in the car. On the machine, you had a machine that put the coal down in the car, you see. And I tell you, you had to pick the rock out of the bottom of that machine. I'd say there was a difference in pay. Plus, you could get six cars on the machine man per man. In the [inaudible 38:32], you could only get four or maybe five at times. So, I don't know why I got paid that [inaudible 38:35]-
Michael Cooke: Did you work in that area? I mean, did you ever work as an operator or-
James Sherman: I worked at the [inaudible 38:44] eye and some on the machine. I worked at all three places. [inaudible 38:47-38:57] Easy operation down here. They had motors [inaudible 39:02]. There were controllers, in other words, that didn't make too many [inaudible 39:16] out of the gas in [inaudible 39:19] mines. They had to be battery operated. And it had to be [inaudible 39:29] so it wouldn't make sparks.
Michael Cooke: Yes.
James Sherman: Make fine selling gas and things. But some people would drive motors, some people would drive mules.
Michael Cooke: How many people do you think at any given time were working at Big Vein?
James Sherman: [inaudible 39:50]
Michael Cooke: How many people were working? If you had a shift of workers how many people do you think would be there?
James Sherman: [inaudible 39:56] I think once they employed close to eighty or ninety people, but see [inaudible 40:05], we didn't have that. There were two thirds. See, the dayshift always had more.
Michael Cooke: Were there any accidents or tragedies?
James Sherman: Very few tragedies. Things were really, really, I thought, kept into a safe working condition for the-
Michael Cooke: You weren't fearful about your working conditions? Were you concerned or? You thought they were-
James Sherman: At times you'd be concerned with loose rock overhead, you know.
Michael Cooke: You didn't have enough support of the beams.
James Sherman: Right. You had to keep that rope job to keep that [inaudible 40:55] up. You know, to keep that pulled down or keep [inaudible 41:00] roof over your head that's all. You had to make sure you had your safety work. We had inspectors. The mine organization had safety inspectors, you know, to come around and keep a check on stuff like that to make sure the company had proper timbers.
Michael Cooke: Are these federal inspectors or state?
James Sherman: Federal and state, yeah.
Michael Cooke: You had state and federal people going into the mines just to make sure that everything was right or safe as possible. You can't make everything perfect, but there was certain danger inherent working there.
James Sherman: Yes. I'm not sure if I should bring this in. But we lost one Black [inaudible 41:58] and one white guy from [inaudible 41:59], and they both died in small rock falls [inaudible 42:04 42:14]. They had people there, but, you know, [inaudible 42:18] one Black man [inaudible 42:22] of course I don't exactly know, but it could have been [inaudible 42:35]. They tried driving back [inaudible 42:41] coal could be delivered by cars, you know. [inaudible 42:51] The thing came down. Of course, it could have been one of the horrible things too because that stuff, we called it a draw slate was a three or four inch piece of [inaudible 43:06] rock made into tar. [inaudible 43:09-43:11] you can take four down by doing this, sometimes it's eleven you know. It's rock but-
Michael Cooke: It's slate, yeah.
James Sherman: And after a certain amount of hours, [inaudible 43:22] a day or two. [inaudible 43:29] At this particular time, most of this have just blasted the coal [inaudible 43:34] before the men could understand you know. And they worked back there.
Michael Cooke: That's one of those things you never know.
James Sherman: Right.
Michael Cooke: You never know. Let's say you had a lot of slate. Did you get paid equally for slate and coal? Or did they say, well we don't really like this slate stuff so...
James Sherman: Let me think. On the machine, you didn't get paid for slate because it was just [inaudible 44:03]. They called it [inaudible 44:04]. The machine run up near close to one end of the room. The working area for it was about twenty-four feet wide for the machine.
Michael Cooke: For the machine, twenty-four feet?
James Sherman: Yeah. You had this man shooting [inaudible 44:25] close to one side because you had a conveyor at the end of it for men to put coal in it. So when you took it out to dry, you had plenty of room behind you to conveyor [inaudible 44:45] you know, on the main chute. And that shoot had something like chains [inaudible 44:53] that slid that coal down the chute, you see. The [inaudible 44:59] heats up down in front. The man had to add on [inaudible 45:03]
Michael Cooke: As you got more distant, you had to add to the belt or it just wouldn't carry far enough.
James Sherman: Right. Well it wasn't really a belt. It was a chain.
Michael Cooke: A chain?
James Sherman: A big chain. It would sort of be like [inaudible 45:22]
Michael Cooke: Oh so you'd put something over it?
James Sherman: That's right. And it laid in the chute, and it'd travel underneath the chute. Then [inaudible 45:31] the coal you see. Then it had an additional car that ran out [inaudible 45:38] into the main chute. Then you could [inaudible 45:43] put it in the main chute then the main chute took it out to the car. Then you had a man down there that would load your car.
Michael Cooke: You ever heard of a dinky?
James Sherman: Sure, they had a dinky.
Michael Cooke: Is that what they were doing?
James Sherman: The dinky they used here was on the outside.
Michael Cooke: On the outside? Oh, so once you got it up then you put it in the dinky-
James Sherman: In the dinky car, yeah.
Michael Cooke: Yeah then down to the-
James Sherman: Down to the main road.
Michael Cooke: Okay. I'm not starting to get some of this. I'm not entirely comfortable with it, but I learned a little bit. Did your father take you to the mine before you started working? I mean, just to get you familiar with that mine? The first time you went into the mine is when you went?
James Sherman: Right. The first time I was in a mine was when I went.
Michael Cooke: They didn't take you?
James Sherman: No.
Michael Cooke: He didn't really want you to get into the mines or did he try to discourage you?
James Sherman: He thought that was the only work available, you know. He wanted me to get work for myself, naturally, you know. He just told me and spoke to me. He didn't care where I went.
Michael Cooke: He didn't try to sway you one way or the other?
James Sherman: No. He said, the [inaudible 47:07] would provide our work. Get a job for me. So [inaudible 47:16-47:19] packed my lunch.
Michael Cooke: How long did it take you to get acclimated with that kind of work? I mean, that's hard work from what I can gather.
James Sherman: I worked there about six weeks before I got-just the [inaudible 47:35]. The conditions you know.
Michael Cooke: Yeah.
James Sherman: And then it was six months before I got the technique down because you had to drill holes [inaudible 47:54] Then you had to charge that hole with power. Then you had to get back make sure you were in a safe position to blast it.
Michael Cooke: Did you stay in the mine during the time of the blast? Or did you actually get out of the mine?
James Sherman: You stay in the mine. You only got into an old worked out place around the hollow [inaudible 48:21], you know.
Michael Cooke: What about gas? Didn't it get a lot of dust and stuff?
James Sherman: [inaudible 48:30-48:33]
Michael Cooke: Now that you're thinking about it, what were we doing?
James Sherman: True. I don't see how we survived. [inaudible 48:45-48:50]
Michael Cooke: Respiratory.
James Sherman: Respiratory. Really causes a big enough case to give you compensation, but I didn't have it. I had a taste of it but not enough to get no benefits from it. [inaudible 49:12].
Michael Cooke: I'm glad to hear that since we know so much about this disease. In fact, some people had it and some people didn't have it. So, you worked for the mines how many years though?
James Sherman: I figured several times about nine and a half years.
Michael Cooke: So, maybe they weren't that long. Some people worked for twenty some years. But then I've seen some people work twenty some years and never had any problems. And I've seen people work less that have problems.
James Sherman: Maybe the condition of your body [inaudible 49:43].
Michael Cooke: Maybe just the genetic makeup of some people can have [inaudible 49:49] and some people can't.
James Sherman: Right.

Keywords: Arsenal; Big Vein; Powder plant; Radford Army Ammunition Plant (U.S.); Radford Arsenal; accidents; chute; coal cart pay; coal mine; dinky; inspectors; mining; pay; slate; tragedies

Subjects: Radford Army Ammunition Plant (U.S.); coal mines and mining

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Well, let’s see. You got out of the mines. When did the mines play out in this area?
James Sherman: I know that for a fact, 1954.
Michael Cooke: 1954. And they closed the mines?
James Sherman: They closed this big mine down.
Michael Cooke: Big Vein?
James Sherman: Big Vein. Great Valley had already closed a year or so prior to that.
Michael Cooke: Okay, was there other mines you could have went to? For instance, I’ve heard that there were mines in Merrimac, [Virginia] and I think Parrot, [Virginia]. Did you consider going there?
James Sherman: Those mines were already closed.
Michael Cooke: Those mines were already closed.
James Sherman: Those mines were already closed. Most of the men in Merrimac came to Big Vein and Great Valley.

Keywords: 1954; Big Vein; Great Valley; Merrimac, Virginia; Parrot, Virginia; closing; mines; play out

Subjects: coal mines and mining

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Let me ask you another question, did they have a lot of Black people work as miners at Parrot and Merrimac?
James Sherman: I don’t believe so. I don’t think there was Black workers..
Michael Cooke: Why do you think that’s the case? I mean, at Big Vein and Great Valley, there seemed to be a lot of Blacks.
James Sherman: Well, a lot of people say it was because of the white communities.
Michael Cooke: White communities? Just in general?
James Sherman: In Parrot.
Michael Cooke: And Parrot is located where?
James Sherman: Across the river from McCoy.
Michael Cooke: Is it in Pulaski?
James Sherman: I think it’s Pulaski County.
Michael Cooke: Just inside the line.
James Sherman: Right. Of course Merrimac is in Montgomery County.
Michael Cooke: Yeah. That’s close to Blacksburg.
James Sherman: Right.
Michael Cooke: But neither one of them-
James Sherman: At that time, I don’t really think Blacks would have been [inaudible 51:40-51:45].
Michael Cooke: You just had to fight your way in, fight your way out.
James Sherman: Right.
Michael Cooke: Why do you think people were like that? I mean because people in McCoy and Long Shop and other areas didn’t seem to matter because the whites of Long Shop and McCoy obviously worked in the same mines you did. Why couldn’t people who were just a few miles away just live and let live? Maybe there’s no answer for that question, but it’s kind of curious that people in McCoy and Long Shop who were white and miners. I understand that some miners would get a ride from a Black who owned a truck.
James Sherman: True.
Michael Cooke: And be carried back and forth to certain locations and then they would walk to their communities. So what’s the big deal with Merrimac and Parrot?
James Sherman: There were never no Blacks to settle in those areas, and there was a lack of education in those areas, you know [inaudible 52:55-53:02].
Michael Cooke: Just not really as open minded as this area?
James Sherman: Right.
Michael Cooke: So I guess that’s kind of quark of how things went out.
James Sherman: Most people come to these mines [inaudible 53:20-53:25].
Michael Cooke: That’s interesting then.
James Sherman: Because [inaudible 53:25] the union.

Keywords: Big Vein; Black miners; Black workers; Great Valley; McCoy, Virginia; Merrimac, Virginia; Montgomery County; Parrot, Virginia; Pulaski, Virginia; white communities

Subjects: Montgomery County (Va.); Race Relations; coal mines and mining

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: And Blacks were members of the union?
James Sherman: Blacks were members of the union.
Michael Cooke: Which union?
James Sherman: The United Mine Workers of America, yeah. I’m trying to think of the [inaudible 53:45] now.
Michael Cooke: Had Blacks always been members of the unions in these mines?
James Sherman: No, the mines really hadn’t always been organized.
Michael Cooke: Oh, so they were already organized. But when they did become organized, they came on as an integrated unions.
James Sherman: Right.
Michael Cooke: Were Blacks leaders within the union?
James Sherman: Yes, we had Blacks leaders.
Michael Cooke: Do you remember some of the people who were kind of union leaders who were Black? Any from this community?
James Sherman: There was…I know there was Mr. Isaack [inaudible 54:26] who was secretary at one time of [inaudible 54:31]. And then he [inaudible 54:36] for some time, you know, in the union. And, of course, the President was always white. I think there was great cooperation in the union. The union was a good thing to happen to it. At that time, particularly if you started a [inaudible 55:05] between the relations, you know, and [inaudible 55:15] I had spent my whole life in this area.

Keywords: Black leaders; Mr. Isaack; United Mine Workers of America; union

Subjects: Coal mines and mining

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Okay, that’s good. Let me ask a question as somewhat of a departure. What about after you got out of the job, was there anything for Black people to do once they got off the job? Was there any social activities or stores they’d go to or ball games they could play?
James Sherman: We could play ball on those hills.
Michael Cooke: Was there any talent in this area?
James Sherman: Yes. Everybody got some.
Michael Cooke: [Laughs].
James Sherman: Everybody said I was the one with talent. I sort of got side tracked there when I came in. I should have been kind of a [inaudible 55:51] out, slowed down and gave up on it. Ball player see I was a good ballplayer down there now. [inaudible 56:03] I didn’t never even pat myself on the back. We had an opposite all Black team that year. Bunch of young men from the coal mines played ball on the weekends.
Michael Cooke: Did y'all do any travelling or did people come here to travel and play against you?
James Sherman: Well, we had people come here and play in tournaments, you know.
Michael Cooke: How’d you get to where you wanted to go?
James Sherman: During that time if we didn’t, we would have one of the white fellows that worked in the mine had a big truck and everybody would put seats in it and load up a whole load of bands and ballplayers and take off.
Michael Cooke: How far did y’all normally go? Or some of the places you did go?
James Sherman: Yes. Wytheville, [Virginia].
Michael Cooke: Wytheville?
James Sherman: Princeton, [West Virginia].
Michael Cooke: Princeton in West Virginia?
James Sherman: Yes. Up there in Bristol up by [57:06] high. Up in that area.
Michael Cooke: Oh man.
James Sherman: Of course, later, after the mines, people came by car, you know. Gathered in the car.
Michael Cooke: When did the Blacks first in this area buy a car?
James Sherman: I can remember back during the depression [inaudible 57:45-57:47]
Michael Cooke: Well after—
James Sherman: [inaudible 57:50] One or two people who I was talking to. I know one [inaudible 58:01-58:05].
Michael Cooke: Yes.
James Sherman: [inaudible 58:08] His brother was a barber. [inaudible 58:14]
Michael Cooke: What did he do as barber?
James Sherman: He worked the coal mines and had a barber shop right down here.
Michael Cooke: Oh in the community?
James Sherman: Right here.
Michael Cooke: So he cut hair on his porch I guess?
James Sherman: Right in the [inaudible 58:27-58:33] So, he made enough money to buy a car and...of course he saved enough to buy a car. I can remember one [inaudible 59:00] Sherman Williams came around after they were old, but I think he thought that he couldn’t do it. And then [inaudible 59:16] buy a twenty, thirty old car, a used car. [inaudible 59:20-59:30]. The people who didn’t have big families could put their money into an automobile you see.
Michael Cooke: So people who didn’t have more than fourteen children-

Keywords: Great Depression; Princeton, West Virginia; Sherman Williams; Wytheville, Virginia; after work; ball games; barber shop; baseball; car; coal mines; social activities

Subjects: Social Life; Wake Forest, Virginia

Partial Transcript: James Sherman: People who didn't have six [Laughter] could have bought a car. People didn’t have any children. Oh, yeah, they could buy a car. The railroad pays well, you know. Equal wages I tell you, you know Black and white. And the mine-
Michael Cooke: Which railroad was this?
James Sherman: Virginia. There used to be a Virginia railroad on this side.
Michael Cooke: Did anybody in this community work with the railroad?
James Sherman: Yes, my wife’s father.
Michael Cooke: And his name was?
James Sherman: George Bannister.
Michael Cooke: Oh, he’s a Bannister? Is he related to the Frank Bannister of Blacksburg?
James Sherman: Yes, he was….[shouts to other room] [inaudible 1:00:32]
Marie Sherman: Huh?
James Sherman: Your dad is Frank Bannister’s uncle?
Marie Sherman: Yeah.
James Sherman: You ever heard of the nickname they gave him?
Michael Cooke: Rabbit?
James Sherman: Bush.
Michael Cooke: Bush. Yeah, right.
James Sherman: [Laughs].
Michael Cooke: It was either Rabbit or Bush I couldn’t remember. There was somebody I was talking to, somebody in Blacksburg he said, you know Bush Bannister?
James Sherman: So, yes, he was Bush’s uncle. Yeah, that’s right. I guess he had another uncle. Edward Sherman worked on the railroad.
Michael Cooke: The same railroad?
James Sherman: The same railroad.
Michael Cooke: They made equal wages or about equal? Or was it-
James Sherman: About equal.
Michael Cooke: Did they have a white wage and then a Black?
[Break in recording]
Michael Cooke: Here we’re back on the tape, and we were talking about the Virginia Railroad. And you said that you believed there was a differential for white and Black wages, but you don’t think it was too great.
James Sherman: No.
Michael Cooke: Great. Anything else you wanted to comment on? Were there any other Black businesses that people owned besides the barber shop that Mr. Hunt owned.
James Sherman: My aunt did have a little store, but what year? That was back in the….that would have been in the [19]40s.
Michael Cooke: Way long back. But a convenience type store where you had the...kind of a mom and pop store?
James Sherman: Right.
Michael Cooke: Rather than going all the way to McCoy or Long Shop, you could actually shop there. Maybe not get everything you need but get some things.
James Sherman: Yup, get some things, yeah.

Keywords: Blacksburg, Virginia; Bush Bannister; Frank Bannister; George Bannister; Long Shop, Virginia; McCoy, virginia; Virginia Railroad; convenience store; equal wages; unequal wages

Subjects: Black Businesses; Railroad

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Okay let's see. Were there any social organizations that people were a part of? Like the Odd Fellows or the Masons or the Household of Ruth or the Independent Order of St. Luke [inaudible 1:02:59]?
James Sherman: There was an Odd Fellows Hall in Blacksburg. Hear that?
Michael Cooke: Yes.
James Sherman: I don’t know whether it was Black or white. Of course [inaudible 1:03:01] by days, you know. But I do remember Odd Fellows Hall [inaudible 1:03:19].
Michael Cooke: Dances. So you did go occasionally to Blacksburg?
James Sherman: Yeah, right. That was uh…
Michael Cooke: That was on Gilbert Street.
James Sherman: Right. And that is mostly in the [inaudible 1:03:35].
Michael Cooke: Right, that was New Town. That was considered New Town.
James Sherman: And the Masons, we were sort of acquainted with the Masons during the [19]40s I would say. There were some in the community-
Michael Cooke: So there are a few Black members of this community who were Masons?
James Sherman: Who were Masons, right.
Michael Cooke: You remember some of the people?
James Sherman: Two. My deceased brother, Grant William Sherman, and I believe James Keys. Now whether they were still Masons, I don’t know.
Michael Cooke: Okay there were no women’s fraternal orders around?
James Sherman: No.
Michael Cooke: No Household of Ruth, you probably heard of that.
James Sherman: Not to my knowledge.
Michael Cooke: Or the Independent Order of St. Luke's?
James Sherman: No.

Keywords: Blacksburg, Virginia; Gilbert Street; Grant William Sherman; Household of Ruth; Independent Order of St. Luke; James Keys; Masons; New Town; Odd Fellows; Odd Fellows Hall; social organizations

Subjects: Odd Fellows; Social Life; Social Organizations

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Okay, well I think we covered all the ground we can, and I really appreciate your cooperation. So we’ll stop here as soon as I get to the button.
[End of interview]