Oral History with Homer C. Sherman, March 13, 1991 (Ms1991-019)

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Today is March 13, 199, and I’m conducting an interview with Homer C. Sherman of Wake Forest in Montgomery County. Mr. Sherman, can you give us a brief sketch of your life? When you were born, what year, what date, and-
Homer Sherman: April twenty-second. April 22, 1917. See, I’m kind of old. April twenty-second. I’m seventy-three.
Michael Cooke: I see. And where were you born? In this community?
Homer Sherman: Oh, yeah. Wake Forest.
Michael Cooke: In the same home you’re living in or in somewhere nearby?
Homer Sherman: No, it isn’t the same home. No, I just bought this when I moved back.
Michael Cooke: Oh, when you moved back?
Homer Sherman: When I moved back. See, I married a northern girl and she liked [inaudible 0:39-0:40] and I thought it was important I move back when I retired.
Michael Cooke: I see.
Homer Sherman: I stayed with her for two and a half years until I come back.
Michael Cooke: Okay. What years were you away?
Homer Sherman: [19]43 to [19]75.
Michael Cooke: [19]75?
Homer Sherman: Well actually maybe [19]41. About thirty-three years.
Michael Cooke: Were you in the army doing anything?
Homer Sherman: No.
Michael Cooke: You weren’t in the military?
Homer Sherman: No, just working.
Michael Cooke: Just working? Okay.

Keywords: 1917; Homer C. Sherman; Montgomery County; Wake Forest, Virginia; move away; working

Subjects: African American history; Wake Forest, Virginia

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Okay. Let’s talk about growing up here as a young person in this area. What things could you do? And what kind of education? Maybe we’ll start with your education, and then we’ll talk about social life that people might have had in this area. Where did people go to school when you were growing up?
Homer Sherman: Right here in Wake Forest.
Michael Cooke: What type of school was it?
Homer Sherman: All Black.
Michael Cooke: All Black? And how was the school constructed?
Homer Sherman: It was a one room, log school. One room.
Michael Cooke: Just one room?
Homer Sherman: One room, log school.
Michael Cooke: Did they have one teacher or several teachers?
Homer Sherman: One teacher at that time-
Michael Cooke: Okay.
Homer Sherman: And after they built two rooms, they had two teachers.
Michael Cooke: Do you remember some of the people you went to school with and the teachers you might have had?
Homer Sherman: Yeah, Ms...Marie’s mother. Ms. Gladys [inaudible 2:27 – 2:32]. Ms. Craig. And Ms. Lewis. Those are the only three teachers I know.
Michael Cooke: I see. How many people were generally going to that one room, log cabin school? I mean on average. I know it’s hard to count them. But if you had to guess, how many do you think were going to the school?
Homer Sherman: Oh, it was in the thirties at that time.
Michael Cooke: At least thirty?
Homer Sherman: Yeah then [inaudible 2:56–2:57] some more of the school age. You see what I mean?
Michael Cooke: So, the community started to grow and they just outgrew the school?
Homer Sherman: Yeah. Yeah. And they had to build another room. Well we forty. We went to Christiansburg. I mean, my dad [inaudible 3:15] went in front of the board and just cried and just decided to have another room. So, they just put on another teacher.
Michael Cooke: What was your dad’s name?
Homer Sherman: Robert H.
Michael Cooke: Robert H.?
Homer Sherman: Sherman.
Michael Cooke: Sherman.
Homer Sherman: Yeah.

Keywords: Rober H. Sherman; Wake Forest, Virginia; all Black; education; growth; one room school; primary education; teachers; two rooms

Subjects: Education Opportunities; Primary Education; Wake Forest, Virginia

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: So, he and who else? Did other people go to this school board hearing and argue for improved facilities?
Homer Sherman: Several did. I can’t just pin-point the names, but I remember him telling me that they went over to the Christiansburg courthouse in the court. You know what I mean.
Michael Cooke: Um-hm.
Homer Sherman: And they finally built the school.
Michael Cooke: And that was 1932 when they did it?
Homer Sherman: No, no. That was built before [19]32.
Michael Cooke: Oh, so that picture you have right there was built before?
Homer Sherman: That picture is [19]32.
Michael Cooke: But they built the school before [19]32?
Homer Sherman: Yeah. I don’t ‘member the year, but that’s technically [19]32.
Michael Cooke: Do you know roughly when your father went to the school board and demanded a better school plan for the people here? It must’ve been the [19]20s then?
Homer Sherman: Early [19]30s when they built that school.
Michael Cooke: Okay.
Homer Sherman: Maybe late [19]30s.
Michael Cooke: Late-
Homer Sherman: I mean, early [19]30s...no. See, this is [19]32-
Michael Cooke: Yeah.
Homer Sherman: And that school was built then, so the school was built before [19]32. You know what I mean?
Michael Cooke: So, it had to be maybe late [19]20s or early [19]30s? Or real early [19]30s.
Homer Sherman: Yeah, it’d had to be [19]30 or [19]31.

Keywords: Christiansburg courthouse; equalities; facilities; one room school; primary school

Subjects: Primary Education; Wake Forest, Virginia; educational equalization

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Okay. All right. Let’s see. Did people in this community, after they finished the grade school, did they have an opportunity to go to Christiansburg Industrial Institute?
Homer Sherman: Um-hm.
Michael Cooke: Did you go?
Homer Sherman: No, I left. I left after I finished taking one subject in eighth grade mathematics or something. And I left. I left and went up north and stayed there for thirty-three years.
Michael Cooke: I see. Well, even if you wanted to go to Christiansburg Institute-
Homer Sherman: Oh, you could’ve-
Michael Cooke: Did they have bus service or?
Homer Sherman: For sure. My brother used to drive a bus. James.
Michael Cooke: James Sherman used to drive the bus?
Homer Sherman: Yeah. Straight from right here to Christiansburg and back. Oh, yeah.
Michael Cooke: So, they did have that opportunity?
Homer Sherman: Yeah. Yeah. Yes, sir.

Keywords: Christiansburg Industrial Institute; James Sherman; bus; eighth grade; mathematics; transportation

Subjects: Christiansburg Industrial Institute.; Secondary Education

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: What about job opportunities in this area? Did you work anytime in the area?
Homer Sherman: Very little farming or something like that. That’s all it was. There wasn’t coal mining. There wasn’t nothin’ at that time.
Michael Cooke: You said off the camera—I mean off the tape—that you worked in both Big Vein and Great Valley.
Homer Sherman: At Great Valley, yeah.
Michael Cooke: At what time did you work at those two mines?
Homer Sherman: [Long pause] I got my social security card January 19, 1937 when it first come out.
Michael Cooke: Uh-huh.
Homer Sherman: It come out in [19]37.
Michael Cooke: That’s right.
Homer Sherman: Social security card. I still got my same one. January 19, [19]37. I worked [19]35. I started in coal mining when I was seventeen. I started when I was about—maybe [19]35. Then I had to get my social security card. They didn’t come out ‘til [19]37. I worked until [19]43 back and forth between mines, and then I left.
Michael Cooke: Which of the mines did you work for the longest? In Big Vein or Great Valley?
Homer Sherman: Great Valley.
Michael Cooke: Oh, Great Valley.
Homer Sherman: Then I come back and worked again, but I don’t know [inaudible 7:26-7:29]. I come back here and worked about a year and a half. My mother got sick, and after I find out she was sick, I said, well, I’ll go home and help them out. Everybody had the flu or pneumonia or something. So, I come from Detroit back here and worked another mine. Oh, I worked a good year.

Keywords: Big Vein; Great Valley; coal mining; mines

Subjects: Agriculture; Coal mines and mining

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: What type of job did you have in Detroit before you came back to this area?
Homer Sherman: I made some parts for Chrysler. Then, I went into construction. I worked for a mattress factory. Oh, all kinds of jobs. Gray iron foundry, brass foundry, packing brass foundry, gray iron, made parts for Chrysler. I worked at a mattress factory. I did construction. That’s about all in the charts.
Michael Cooke: That’s a lot [Laughs]. A lot of jobs. Did other people in the community, from Wake Forest, go to Detroit? I mean, why did you choose Detroit of all the places you could’ve chosen?
Homer Sherman: Well, I been there twice before
Michael Cooke: Okay, why?
Homer Sherman: When I was sixteen-seventeen, I stayed with my aunt up there.
Michael Cooke: Oh, so you had relatives there?
Homer Sherman: And I liked it, and I said I’ll just go up to Detroit and just get me a job ‘cause you could get a job anywhere then. And my sister—the one that died—she had left here and went up there. And so she married after she got there. Well, he had left. And my cousin, she is still up there. And that’s one thing that prompted me to go back to Detroit, but I’d been there before. Oh, yeah [inaudible 9:12]. I stayed with my aunt there.
Michael Cooke: Was your aunt from Wake Forest originally?
Homer Sherman: Yeah, born here.
Michael Cooke: Born here. So, that was a calling card.
Homer Sherman: Yeah, I stayed with her.
Michael Cooke: People were already pretty much successful. And why did you go? You felt like you could get a better job or better pay?
Homer Sherman: Yeah, I did. I was making more money. Lord, yes. Because when they were first building this plant over here in 1940-
Michael Cooke: Hercules...the Radford Arsenal.
Homer Sherman: Yeah, but there was no Radford Arsenal when I left here. They were just workin’ on it.
Michael Cooke: I see.
Homer Sherman: I never worked a day over there ‘cause they was paying twenty, I mean paying forty-five and fifty cent an hour [laughter]. I started off...my lowest paying job was $1.68. At the lowest.
Michael Cooke: That’s the lowest.
Homer Sherman: And I just worked on up to the top.
Michael Cooke: And that was about what? Three times or more of the salary?
Homer Sherman: Three times.

Keywords: Chrysler; Detroit; Radford Army Ammunition Plant; Radford Arsenal; Wake Forest, Virginia; brass factory; factory work; gray iron foundry; job; mattress factory; work

Subjects: Migration; Radford Army Ammunition Plant (U.S.); Work Opportunities

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: If you had worked in the mines, how much would you make in a day?
Homer Sherman: You couldn’t make...Well...
Michael Cooke: What kind of work did you do? Inside? Outside?
Homer Sherman: Inside, no coat. You got-
Michael Cooke: With a machine or a pick?
Homer Sherman: Yeah, on machine.
Michael Cooke: Um-hm.
Homer Sherman: Let’s see, they were payin’ $1.47 a car. $1.47. There’d be four on a machine, and we’d load twenty four and twenty eight, you know fifty-sixty scoops. Six or seven a piece. You was makin’ pretty decent money at that time, but the work was so hard.
Michael Cooke: How hard would it take to load a car? I mean if you had to figure out an average for it working to get a car filled.
Homer Sherman: Oh, three minutes [inaudible 11:12].
Michael Cooke: Oh, just three minutes?
Homer Sherman: Oh, yeah.
Michael Cooke: It didn’t take that long.
Homer Sherman: You put six-
Michael Cooke: But they would divide by six. In other words, you would have to-
Homer Sherman: Or, if there’s four of them, four times six is twenty-four.
Michael Cooke: Okay.
Homer Sherman: Twenty-eight. Four times seven is twenty-eight.
Michael Cooke: That’s right.
Homer Sherman: That’s how we do it. Each man had a check. You hang that check on your car. There’s four of us. I hang one first, the next one, the next one, the next one. [inaudible 11:49]. But if he come back, then we start all over again with four cars. If it’s six, then I get two that round. You see what I mean?
Michael Cooke: Um-hm.
Homer Sherman: Of course, I started out first. And then when he come back, the other guy gotta pick up. It had to be even.
Michael Cooke: I see. It had to be even.
Homer Sherman: Yeah, I know some white boy who used to load forty, ten apiece. But, we load thirty-two at the most, though. We load about thirty-two. That’s eight apiece.
Michael Cooke: Um-hm. How did you get to work?
Homer Sherman: Walk from over here. The house up on the hill there. That’s where I was born. I was born on the corner. It’s still down there.
Michael Cooke: All right.
Homer Sherman: And me and my father would walk to work for a while. Then we started riding with a white guy. Me, my father, and my brother. He’s dead now too, my oldest brother.
Michael Cooke: What’s your oldest brother’s name?
Homer Sherman: Arthur.
Michael Cooke: Arthur.
Homer Sherman: He died right up here at the dump. He was running the dump for the state, you know? And they went up and found him and he was dead. Then Arthur, he come up to Detroit and that made three of us up there at one time. Me, him, and my sister. Then my baby sister, she moved up there [inaudible 13:323] at one time.

Keywords: coal mine; load a car; machine; mine; pay; pick; salary; transportation

Subjects: Work Opportunities; coal mines and mining

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: You also said, uh, you had some relatives in Columbus-
Homer Sherman: I got a brother in Columbus.
Michael Cooke: Um-hm.
Homer Sherman: Carter.
Michael Cooke: What kind of work did he do there?
Homer Sherman: He was a truck driver, long distance truck. Over the road, they call it.
Michael Cooke: Um-hm.
Homer Sherman: He drove from Indianapolis, Indiana to Cleveland, Dayton, Akron, Chillicothe, Charleston, all over.
Michael Cooke: Did any other relatives live in Columbus?
Homer Sherman: No, he married and moved up there.
Michael Cooke: So, what about-
Homer Sherman: His wife had two people there. That’s why he moved up there.
Michael Cooke: Oh, so he was going because he was still familiar with something.
Homer Sherman: Yeah, well-
Michael Cooke: Familiar with people there.
Homer Sherman: He moved up there after he quit the mine, and then he went up there and start driving a truck.
Michael Cooke: When did he quit the mines?
Homer Sherman: I don’t know what year. I’d gone away [inaudible 14:46].
Michael Cooke: Oh, so you’re not sure.
Homer Sherman: When I called him once, he said he was in Columbus. I said, that’s quite away from Detroit. That’s three and a half hours. But he’s retired now. Last year, I stayed with him one night at his place. Yeah, he’s doing all right now. He retired. Wife, I think she retired.

Keywords: Akron; Carter Sherman; Charleston; Chillicothe; Cleveland; Columbus; Dayton; Indiana; Indianapolis; truck driver

Subjects: Work Opportunities

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Let me ask you another question. How did you get along with the white miners? Were they hard to deal with or?
Homer Sherman: No, no.
Michael Cooke: Was there problems with people saying-
Homer Sherman: They don’t have to say that.
Michael Cooke: So you along well?
Homer Sherman: There’d be two white and two colored on each machine.
Michael Cooke: On each machine?
Homer Sherman: If it’s six on one machine, it’s three white and three colored. Sometimes five white and one color [inaudible 15:48].
Michael Cooke: Where did these white workers come from? I mean, where do they live, most of them?
Homer Sherman: Right here in McCoy.
Michael Cooke: McCoy.
Homer Sherman: Just on 5th Avenue.
Michael Cooke: Any from Long Shop or-
Homer Sherman: Yeah.
Michael Cooke: Few.
Homer Sherman: Few. Long Shop. We used to ride with the guys from Long Shop after they bought an old car, me and my dad would walk up on the hill and let the [inaudible 15:58] down and catch them and put us off on [inaudible 6:04].
Michael Cooke: The people got along?
Homer Sherman: You had some nasty ones, now. Ran across some nasty ones every now and then.
Michael Cooke: Every once in a while.
Homer Sherman: Every once in a while.
Michael Cooke: But, the majority of people you know-
Homer Sherman: Yeah.
Michael Cooke: This is tough work for everybody so we had to get along.
Homer Sherman: You’ll have to calm them down. And we had a pretty good boss. My superintendent, he didn’t take too much stuff. You know what I mean? All you had to do was go and tell them. Told them this guy is trynna give you a hard time or something and he was out to fire him. There wasn’t no-
Michael Cooke: So, they ain’t tolerating no monkey business.
Homer Sherman: No sir.
Michael Cooke: It’s too dangerous to work-
Homer Sherman: My dad worked with a few white guys for twenty-something years. He [inaudible 16:53-16:56].
Michael Cooke: Um-hm.
Homer Sherman: They got along.
Michael Cooke: This, this is a dangerous occupation-
Homer Sherman: Yeah.
Michael Cooke: You got racial friction in the mine. That’s the, that’s the last place you’d want to have that.
Homer Sherman: Yeah, you didn’t want that.
Michael Cooke: When you went to the mines, did you get any prior training? Or did your father take you to the mines and-
Homer Sherman: No.
Michael Cooke: Did he talk you into perhaps coming on board?
Homer Sherman: No. I told the guy I wanted to go in the mine. I said, ain’t nothin’ else around here. And this boy’s father, right here, take me into the mine. Named William Morris.
Michael Cooke: William Morris?
Homer Sherman: Yeah. This boy is dead. He died last year, William. But, this here Charlie, and he’s named after William Morris, take me in the mine. 1935. I’m pretty sure.
Michael Cooke: So, you had apprenticeship with some experienced miners showing you the rope.
Homer Sherman: Oh yeah, you couldn’t go in there without somebody knowing. They wouldn’t put two new guys together.
Michael Cooke: So how did long it take you to really know what you were doin’? Or think that you knew what you doing? [Laughs]
Homer Sherman: No, I caught on just [snaps fingers] like that. Then he put me by myself, after a long time, me and another boy. This boy right here. We worked together for years.
Michael Cooke: What was his name?
Homer Sherman: Harry Ease.
Michael Cooke: Harry Ease.
Homer Sherman: Yeah.
Michael Cooke: So, you worked with people for many, many years.
Homer Sherman: Um-hm.

Keywords: Harry Ease; Long Shop, Virginia; McCoy, Virginia; apprenticeship; machine work; white miners

Subjects: Race Relations; Work Opportunities; coal mines and mining

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Um-hm. Let me ask you another question, when you were growing up, where did people do their shopping? I mean if you wanna buy groceries or-
Homer Sherman: Go to Radford.
Michael Cooke: You had to go to Radford?
Homer Sherman: Yeah, well, no.
Michael Cooke: Did you go to McCoy or Long Shop?
Homer Sherman: Yeah. Well, they had these small stores but if you wanted meats or something like that you-
Michael Cooke: Convenience stores-
Homer Sherman: Had to go to Radford. They had a store they called the Piggly Wiggly.
Michael Cooke: Piggly Wiggly?
Homer Sherman: Yeah.
Michael Cooke: So, you went all the way-
Homer Sherman: You could get beans, lard, and meat, and rice, and oatmeal and stuff. You see small stores and—one, two, three, four, there were six at one time.
Michael Cooke: Could you name the locations and who the owners were?
Homer Sherman: There’s three in McCoy.
Michael Cooke: Three in McCoy. What were they called-
Homer Sherman: John Scott.
Michael Cooke: John Scott.
Homer Sherman: Harmen Almond, and Peach Diet. There was three stores down there. Four, Genomic. Four stores, small stores.
Michael Cooke: Um-hm.
Homer Sherman: You could get rice and beans and oatmeal, syrup and stuff like, but your meats, you had to go to Radford. Didn’t have fresh meat ‘cause didn’t have the ‘frigeration like they got now.

Keywords: Harmen Almond; John Scott; Long Shop, Virginia; McCoy, Virginia; Peach Diet; Piggly Wiggly; Radford, Virginia; beans; convenience store; groceries; lard; meat; oatmeal; refrigeration; rice; shopping

Subjects: Grocery Stores

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Did they have electricity in this area?
Homer Sherman: Oh, they had electricity, but didn’t have ‘frigeration. Your [inaudible 19:54] could be cold, but it didn’t hold much meat.
Michael Cooke: I see. Did they have electricity out [in] this area?
Homer Sherman: Uh, yeah. Lord, we had electricity [inaudible 20:06 – 20:08]. My dad, oh years and years ago.
Michael Cooke: This was during the [19]30s?
Homer Sherman: [Long pause] I’d say yeah.
Michael Cooke: Okay. During the Depression?
Homer Sherman: Oh, during the Depression? Let’s see. Now wait a minute. I could almost tell you when we had the house wired. But they had juice cause coal miners would had to be to get up there-
Michael Cooke: Oh yeah, well that had to be lit up.
Homer Sherman: Yeah, they had their own power station coming from Dublin down to Pulaski.
Michael Cooke: So, they had their own power source?
Homer Sherman: Yeah.

Keywords: Dublin; Great Depression; Pulaski; coal mines; electricity; power station; refrigeration

Subjects: Rural Electrification

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: So, people did their shopping in Radford?
Homer Sherman: That’s correct.
Michael Cooke: Why didn’t they go to Blacksburg? Was that just too far?
Homer Sherman: Well, it wasn’t but you had a Kroger store at that time and a A&P. There’s no more A&P, I don’t think.
Michael Cooke: No, no that’s gone.
Homer Sherman: The Kroger was downtown where the bank is at now. That was a big store. Then you had there wasn’t no Radford Brothers, no Wades, or nothin’. Wasn’t none of those. Radford had several stores at that time.
Michael Cooke: So, you just had more of a choice?
Homer Sherman: You had to go to [inaudible 21:36].
Michael Cooke: And how would y’all get there?
Homer Sherman: Oh, somebody had a car.
Michael Cooke: So, you’d get somebody with a car?
Homer Sherman: Yeah.
Michael Cooke: Did your father have a car?
Homer Sherman: No, no. I bought one after I started working at the coal mine. And we’d go mostly to Radford to do the shopping.
Michael Cooke: Um-hm. So, you was the one in charge of takin’ people to the various stores, I guess.
Homer Sherman: Yeah, back then, gas was only nineteen cent a gallon.
Michael Cooke: Uh-hm.
Homer Sherman: I bought a many gallon, five gallons for a dollar.
Michael Cooke: Uh-hm.
Homer Sherman: Five gallon for a dollar. Many gallons.
Michael Cooke: Those days are long gone.
Homer Sherman: They gone. They gone.
Michael Cooke: Yeah, long gone.
Homer Sherman: Right there under the hill, across that bridge there, I used to give them a dollar, equals five gallon in there.

Keywords: A&P; Blacksburg, Virginia; Kroger; Radford Brothers; Radford, Virginia; Wades; car; gas prices; shopping; transportation

Subjects: Grocery Stores

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: That’s interesting. Let’s see. Was there any occasions when you had just really racist incidents where you had friction between blacks and whites like the Klan or any activity like that?
Homer Sherman: No.
Michael Cooke: You didn’t have that?
Homer Sherman: At one time, they had some kinda little movement, the Klan. But I don’t know. I didn’t know about it. I just heard about it. I couldn’t say it, if you know what I mean. But, you did say that there was two or three out of here that belonged to it, a white guy. But, I never did see nothing out of it that made you think they belonged to it. We always got along cause people were pretty mean, don’t let ‘em take over a lot of stuff.
Michael Cooke: [Laughter]
Homer Sherman: Like I said.
Michael Cooke: Were there some places, though, where black people didn’t feel comfortable? Let’s say you wanna go to Merrimac or Parrott, [Virginia]
Homer Sherman: Yeah, Merrimac, they towed your car. Parrott, if you go across the river and went that way to go to Radford, you know, you’d hear the word nigger. And you wouldn’t know who said it, and the next week you’d be working right down at the mine. But, you didn’t know who said it, and you couldn’t say nothin’. See what I mean?
Michael Cooke: Yeah. There were mines in both Parrot and Merrimac?
Homer Sherman: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Michael Cooke: Did Blacks work at those mines?
Homer Sherman: No, they were lily-white.
Michael Cooke: Lily-white.
Homer Sherman: Yes, sir.
Michael Cooke: So, there was no Black opportunities there?
Homer Sherman: Nope.
Michael Cooke: Why do you think that was the case? And why wasn’t-
Homer Sherman: Well, we was workin’ here. We were making more here then you would than either one them mines. So, we didn’t have to go to Parrott or Merrimac.
Michael Cooke: Could you have gone if you really wanted to?
Homer Sherman: I’d say you could. I’d say you could.
Michael Cooke: But the climate there was not as good for Blacks?
Homer Sherman: No, I wouldn’t have felt comfortable of being, say, two colored guys of 250 in the white mines.
Michael Cooke: Yeah.
Homer Sherman: See what I mean? I wouldn’t have gone to that mine. [inaudible 24:54 – 24:58]. We did all right here.
Michael Cooke: Were those mines in Parrott and—it’s gone out my head—Merrimac, were they union mines or non-union mines?
Homer Sherman: No, non-union.
Michael Cooke: They were non-union.
Homer Sherman: Yeah.
Michael Cooke: So that’s probably why they were kind of-
Homer Sherman: I finally joined.
Michael Cooke: But most of the time it was non-union?
Homer Sherman: Yeah, we was union.
Michael Cooke: What union were you a member of?
Homer Sherman: I believe it was 2016.
Michael Cooke: United, United Mine Worker?
Homer Sherman: Yeah, of America.
Michael Cooke: Of America.
Homer Sherman: John L. Lewis come in, after he got strong. He organized us.
Michael Cooke: Did he ever come to this area?
Homer Sherman: No. I’d say the closest he’d come was Radford
Michael Cooke: Radford. But, he never came to this area.
Homer Sherman: No, but, see, we even got paid for traveling. He made it possible for us. You’d get about seven dollars just to go down there and come back even if you didn’t know enough.
Michael Cooke: And even if they couldn’t work because there was gas in the mine.
Homer Sherman: Yes, sir. You got paid traveling time-
Michael Cooke: You got paid traveling.
Homer Sherman: Traveling time.
Michael Cooke: So, at least you got traveling time.
Homer Sherman: Yes, sir.
Michael Cooke: You didn’t walk all the way over there and there was-
Homer Sherman: He made it-
Michael Cooke: A cave in or danger of a cave in or gas explosion, and then you’d just have to just simply burn up your shoe leather.
Homer Sherman: Yeah, he made it possible. The traveling time. If you didn’t know nothin’. If you went down there and something happened, you still got paid for traveling time.
Michael Cooke: That’s good.

Keywords: KKK; Klan activity; Ku Klux Klan; Merrimac, Virginia; Parrott, Virginia; Radford, Virginia; United Mine Workers of America; friction; non-union mine; union mine

Subjects: Coal mines and mining; Ku Klux Klan (1915- )

Partial Transcript: Homer Sherman: That’s after union come in. But before the union, I worked there when you were working there ten hours a day. They’d tell you to work ten hours a day, don’t come out [inaudible 26:44] your tools with you. But then it cut down to seven and a half, eight. You could finish. I had been by 1:30, two o’clock. Whenever you finish.
Michael Cooke: Whenever you finish.
Homer Sherman: See, the union made it possible.
Michael Cooke: Now, did you work when the mines weren’t union anytime?
Homer Sherman: Yeah, that’s what I say. I worked when there wasn’t a union.
Michael Cooke: Okay, then when did they finally get unions?
Homer Sherman: Must’ve been-
Michael Cooke: Before you or after you left for the trip?
Homer Sherman: No, I worked with the union.
Michael Cooke: Oh, so, during the time-
Homer Sherman: 1941 to something.
Michael Cooke: Did y’all have to vote on whether you wanted to become-
Homer Sherman: They had a meeting, yeah.
Michael Cooke: And everybody, obviously, voted.
Homer Sherman: Yeah, we was a union.
Michael Cooke: Oh.
Homer Sherman: Oh, yeah.
Michael Cooke: So, did the treatment of workers greatly improve?
Homer Sherman: Greatly improved after John L. Lewis taken over.
Michael Cooke: So, conditions got much better?
Homer Sherman: Better, better. Better.
Michael Cooke: Higher pay and less work, maybe?
Homer Sherman: Your superintendent couldn’t tell you this and that and you had to do it. See, ‘cause we had a steward, business agent. He go turn and lay him out so he ain’t gonna do this. [inaudible 28:09-28:12] mistakes then he don’t have to do it. Oh, we was strong. So, that cooled them down. You understand?
Michael Cooke: Yeah that’s good. I thought this area was-
Homer Sherman: Two stewards, two business agents just around all the time.
Michael Cooke: That’s good.
Homer Sherman: Make your complaint. See, well, [inaudible 28:35] go to him and he’d go right straight to the boss. He’d go right straight to him and tell him. Say, he don’t have to do this. [inaudible 28:44 – 28:49] You try something else.
Michael Cooke: Okay. The question I was going to ask is were there any Blacks who played a part in union leadership? Were there any Blacks who were treasurers or secretaries or presidents of the union?
Homer Sherman: I don’t know. I’d have to ask Steve over there. Now he worked there after I left, you know, and I don’t think there was no Black-
Michael Cooke: At the times that you had before you left.
Homer Sherman: Yeah, no.
Michael Cooke: I had talked with Steve, or as we call him—officially we gotta call him James Sherman, or nobody gonna know who he is.
Homer Sherman: Yeah.
Michael Cooke: James Sherman did recall that there was a few Blacks who were in positions of authority in the union.
Homer Sherman: I think it was. I believe he told me-
Michael Cooke: I believe Isaac Hunt.
Homer Sherman: Isaac Hunt was something.
Michael Cooke: A treasurer.
Homer Sherman: I believe he was at one time.
Michael Cooke: And there might’ve been a few others.
Homer Sherman: Yeah, they was qualified. But, see, after John L. Lewis taken over, he made it possible. You see we couldn’t-
Michael Cooke: Could people be fire bosses? Would they fire-
Homer Sherman: No, we couldn’t do it like we used to.
Michael Cooke: Were there Black fire bosses before the unions?
Homer Sherman: No, no. We didn’t have black fire bosses.
Michael Cooke: But then with the unions, that might’ve changed?
Homer Sherman: No, you didn’t have one on each shift-
Michael Cooke: I see.
Homer Sherman: I mean, they was white, most of them.
Michael Cooke: Most.
Homer Sherman: Well, actually-
Michael Cooke: Frank Banister, I talked with him, and he was a fire boss.
Homer Sherman: I think he was for a while over there.
Michael Cooke: At Big Vein, but this is after the union. In other words, before the unions, there were no Black fire bosses.
Homer Sherman: Yeah.
Michael Cooke: After the unions, you got some.
Homer Sherman: I think somebody did tell me that Frank Banister was a fire boss for a while.
Michael Cooke: Yeah.
Homer Sherman: He was [inaudible 30:44], you know what I mean.
Michael Cooke: Yeah.
Homer Sherman: If a guy didn’t show up or something like that or they get overloaded then he could help or something like that. Yeah.
Michael Cooke: I see. Okay. That’s still a step up ‘cause in the past all Black people could do would be as-
Homer Sherman: Yeah, was just work.

Keywords: Black leaders; Frank Bannister; Isaac Hunt; James Sherman; John L. Lewis; Steve Sherman; fire boss; mine conditions; union; union leadership; work conditions; work hours

Subjects: Unions; coal mines and mining

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Work hard, and that was it. That’s interesting. I guess we have basically touched all the issues we wanted to talk about. Were there any Black businesses in the area when you were growing up or while you were working in the area?
Homer Sherman: No, no. Coffee shops and stuff like that. But in Blacksburg you had businesses-
Michael Cooke: Oh, yes.
Homer Sherman: You had shoe shops, you had everything. See, all Black.
Michael Cooke: But in this area, you didn’t have-
Homer Sherman: Didn’t have ‘em.
Michael Cooke: What about convenience stores?
Homer Sherman: No. Your clerks was all white in most of the few stores you had. But, to do any shoppin’, wasn’t no five and ten rows and stuff. You most likely had to go to Radford. If I remember that well, to do any kind of shopping—
[Break in Recording]
Michael Cooke: Okay, we’re back on tape. You were talking about how you did your shopping in Radford and even when you went to get your furniture, that's where you’d go?
Homer Sherman: Yes, sir.
Michael Cooke: And you said that—did they deliver?
Homer Sherman: They delivered.
Michael Cooke: They deliver. To this area?
Homer Sherman: Yes.

Keywords: Black businesses; Blacksburg, Virginia; Radford, Virginia; convenience stores; shoe shops

Subjects: Black Businesses; Stores

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: That’s good. What about roads? Were they paved? What kind of goods and services did the county provide for people in this area? Did they help pave the roads, or put electricity, or lights up, or anything?
Homer Sherman: Mostly dirt at that time, but they kept them roads and graded them down all the time. It was pretty decent. And, they just paved them, oh it’s been quite a while back. I can’t tell what year. But, see, they go all the way across the hill over there where Jessie lives. That’s the interstate and they maintained it-
Michael Cooke: Yes, right..
Homer Sherman: Right there. And they don’t go off of that and do nothin’. We have to upkeep our own roads coming in here, see. We buy gravel and get us a spreader. We have to do that. See, it’s four of us spread a load. We split it. Seven-teen and a half dollars four ways. That’s how we’d pay ‘em.
Michael Cooke: Um-hm. Okay.
Homer Sherman: That’s how we do it.

Keywords: county; electricity; goods and services; gravel; lights; roads

Subjects: Public Goods and Services; Roads

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Okay. Did you have children in this area? Grow up in this area or did they grow up in Detroit?
Homer Sherman: No, both of my children were born in Philadelphia.
Michael Cooke: Oh, Philadelphia. That’s where you last worked. That’s right. So, you can’t talk about the educational experiences of your children ‘cause they didn’t grow up in this area.
Homer Sherman: My daughter, she married some army guy. He’s not army. He’s some air force guy. I think it could be [inaudible 33:50] or something. She lives up in Goldsboro, North Carolina.
Michael Cooke: Uh-huh.
Homer Sherman: And my son, he’s twenty-seven, soon to be twenty-eight. He’s in...I forget the name of the place. He’s in California, but it ain’t Los Angeles. It’s the south, that’s where he’s at.
Michael Cooke: Okay.
Homer Sherman: I just had the two kids, and I got four step children, though. That’s my wife, she had four with her husband.
Michael Cooke: Uh-huh.
Homer Sherman: See, this my second wife, too.
Michael Cooke: Okay. So, you got married in Detroit, I guess?
Homer Sherman: I married Jen at thirty-nine.
Michael Cooke: I see.
Homer Sherman: See what I mean? It would’ve been fifty-one years if we still would’ve been together.
Michael Cooke: I see. Okay.
Homer Sherman: This my second wife. We married in [19]68. October 26, 1968.
Michael Cooke: Oh, okay. I think we have covered most of the ground. I can’t think of any other questions to ask you. Part of the time you weren’t in the area, so can’t ask you about that, but-
Homer Sherman: Yes, [inaudible 35:15].
Michael Cooke: But, you did talk quite elaborately about things going on in electrification and job opportunities, and race relations.

Keywords: Detroit; Goldsboro, North Carolina; Jen; Philadelphia; educational experiences; married

Subjects: Education

Partial Transcript: Homer Sherman: Yeah, race relations wasn’t too bad. The only thing that would stop us was Blacksburg. You had to go down the back to eat. And I believe [inaudible 35:38] the restaurant had two stools. And if we went in there late at night, like, we were in the mood to get a hot dog, hamburger, something, anything, two got in there first and the others had to stand up. You had to go around to the back. You couldn’t come through the front. [inaudible 35:57 -36:05]. That’s what I couldn’t understand.
Michael Cooke: They wouldn’t serve the Blacks who even though the-
Homer Sherman: Not in the front.
Michael Cooke: Even though all the Blacks--
Homer Sherman: He’d lose his job.
Michael Cooke: Hm.
Homer Sherman: See what I’m tryna say?
Michael Cooke: Yeah.
Homer Sherman: But, all his chefs was black, cooks and everything. But, I still didn’t understand why we had to go down to the back. Everything had gone on a long time.

Keywords: Blacksburg, Virginia; back; chefs; cooks; race relations; restaurant; segregation

Subjects: Segregation

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Final question, why so many of the younger generation from this area left this area?
Homer Sherman: More money and better opportunity. See, if you stay after the mine, what they call blowed it out, in [19]54, you was blank. Yeah, ain’t nothin’ here. See, there wasn’t no Federal Mogul and Poly-Scientific and stuff. Wasn’t nothin’. You understand what I mean?
Michael Cooke: Right. Couldn’t you go to VPI to try to look for a job?
Homer Sherman: At that time, back then, I guess they was [inaudible 37:11] you couldn’t do nothin’ there.
Michael Cooke: Okay. So, there was just nothing available?
Homer Sherman: Wasn’t nothing. You had to leave to get the right kind of job. I know several guys worked for the college, I mean, but they lived in Blacksburg.
Michael Cooke: Um-hm.
Homer Sherman: They worked in the college, some of them. Most of them I know retired there.
Michael Cooke: Well, you couldn’t commute back and forth-
Homer Sherman: No.
Michael Cooke: And make any money.
Homer Sherman: No. Well, these guys around here mostly wouldn’t even go to that janitor and all that stuff. They went out to the steel mills and factories and things where they could make something.
Michael Cooke: Um-hm.
Homer Sherman: Truck drivers and stuff.
Michael Cooke: Just was not appealing to people?
Homer Sherman: No.
Michael Cooke: They just didn’t apply? Many of the cases.
Homer Sherman: That’s what I think. I don’t think it wouldn’t have been the case they wouldn’t have hired them. But they just didn’t go.
Michael Cooke: People thought they had better opportunities.
Homer Sherman: Opportunities somewhere else.
Michael Cooke: Yeah.
Homer Sherman: That’s the whole thing.
Michael Cooke: Well-
Homer Sherman: I know several people left here. One went to Flint, Michigan; he died. Him and his sister, they got up there and worked for General Motors, and they made the money. And he said he wasn’t never comin’ back for these wages. You understand what I mean.
Michael Cooke: I understand.
Homer Sherman: And, after the mines blowed out in [19]54, wasn’t no Poly-Scientific and...what’s that other place?
Michael Cooke: Federal Mogul.
Homer Sherman: No, the other one.
Michael Cooke: Oh, Wolverine.
Homer Sherman: No, it’s another right here next to-
Michael Cooke: To...
Homer Sherman: To Poly-Scientific.
Michael Cooke: I can’t....Poly-Scientific had two locations. I forget which one you’re referring to.
Homer Sherman: Poly-Scientific….I know some boys retired there. They retired there after they did get on there. But, uh, you got three or four still workin’ there, Poly-Scientific, right now.
Michael Cooke: Well, it just wasn’t—I mean, for the number of people-
Homer Sherman: They wouldn’t hired all of them no how, you see what I mean?
Michael Cooke: Um-hm.
Homer Sherman: You’d had a slim chance that maybe out of eighteen, maybe two get hired or somethin’, so sixteen left out. And, they just didn’t go. Like you said, I don’t believe they just went and applied for a job. They probably did a better job. I know several in Blacksburg retired there, but these people just never did go.
Michael Cooke: Um-hm. And they figure they can get better wages.
Homer Sherman: Better wages, what they was lookin’ at.
Michael Cooke: Okay. Well-
Homer Sherman: They made it, too. I got, a brother-in-law in Detroit. I believe his pension, ain’t countin’ his social security, is about $1200, his pension alone. Ain’t countin’ his social security. See, he worked General Motors twenty, twenty-eight years. He got a pension.
Michael Cooke: And you tack that into social security benefits-
Homer Sherman: He’s making decent living, you see. House paid for. He married my sister, baby girl. But that’s the reason why I left. I wasn’t makin’ what I wanted to, and I’d been to Detroit a couple times before then. I said, well, I just...So I saved up some money at the coal mine, and then I come out the one evening and told my daddy—was workin’ with my daddy and two white guys—I told him, I said, this is it. I ain’t coming back in there never again. And I loaded up my tools. That’s after I went and come back after working awhile. You know?
Michael Cooke: Um-hm.

Keywords: Blacksburg, Virginia; Detroit; Flint, Michigan; General Motors; VPI; better opportunity; job opportunities; migration; mines; money; social security benefits; truck drivers; work opportunities; younger generation

Subjects: Migration; Work Opportunities

Partial Transcript: Homer Sherman: I loaded up my tools and never even went to get them. And, come out and told the bookkeeper, have my check ready the next day. He said, you ain’t quittin’? I said, yeah, I’m leavin’. And at that time, I believe a bus back to Detroit about eight dollars.
Michael Cooke: Just eight dollars?
Homer Sherman: Yes, sir.
Michael Cooke: You gave them eight dollars $8.00, and it was glad to be gone?
Homer Sherman: Be gone. Never got my tools, nothin’. Not nothin’. Didn’t need ‘em. Just kept getting that. My dad, I come home over to him. He said, what you go quittin’? I said, I’m leavin’. I said, all this hard work, I said, we ain’t getting’ nothing for it. I said, we oughta be makin’ forty-five dollars a day [for as] hard as we work. [inaudible 41:57 - 42:04] so he said, well I can’t stop you. You’re grown.
Michael Cooke: The other miners had the same—I mean other black miners—do the same thing that you did? Decide to leave the occupation?
Homer Sherman: No, I might’ve been the only one that just quit.
Michael Cooke: So not many?
Homer Sherman: No, I just quit. I’ll never forget. Me and my dad and two white guys on a machine and I said, this the last lump of coal I'll load in this coal mine. I said that. I loaded up my tools, put my check on ‘em, and, these white guys said, you ain’t quittin’, is ya? I said, I’m quittin’. Ain’t been back.
Michael Cooke: What made you...just fed up?
Homer Sherman: I said, I can make more money just [inaudible 42:51] somewhere.
Michael Cooke: [Laughs]
Homer Sherman: So, I just went back to Detroit. First job I got when I went back to Cincinnati was [inaudible 43:00 – 43:06]. Went to Detroit-
[Tape issues between 43:10 and 43:31].
Homer Sherman: So, I went over there to get a job anywhere. [inaudible 43:33]. Anywhere. You could quit and go there for the rest of the day. So, I stayed there the next two years. Then, I applied for Chrysler, and piece work. I was makin’ about nineteen dollars a day then, just piece work.
Michael Cooke: Um-hm.
Homer Sherman: So, I didn’t had nothin’ to spend it for, and then my brother, he come up. He opened up a garage, him and some colored boys opened up a garage. They was doin’ good. I’ve had business with me. I had a corner store. I had pop, potato chips, hamburger, hot dog, everything. But see, then they come up renting from [inaudible 44:3]. They come up to say I couldn’t swing the $20,000. But now, I could’ve did it. But, I wasn’t established enough back in Detroit. You know what I mean business wise.
Michael Cooke: So, you had to sell? You had to leave that, to quit that business?
Homer Sherman: Yeah, I had to. So he give me a month to come up with 20,000, and I tried several places, but I wasn’t established long enough and needed a co-signer, you see?
Michael Cooke: I see.
Homer Sherman: Finally got a co-signer and a beautiful place. Had a shooting gallery, had a shooting gallery in the back, place for kids to dance, and hot dogs, hamburgers, potato chips, candy, chewing gum, everything. Was good.
Michael Cooke: But, just couldn’t-
Homer Sherman: I couldn’t swing the—when he foreclosed, right, he said, I got several places, and I asked him and he said 20,000. But, I couldn’t swing it.
Michael Cooke: Um-hm.
Homer Sherman: But in the later years, see, if I’d been in Philadelphia, I coulda borrowed it anyway. I was established then.
Michael Cooke: Yeah.
Homer Sherman: The guy I worked for, I could’ve got it from him. He put several people in business, several people.
Michael Cooke: Well, that’s, yeah that’s interesting.
Homer Sherman: But, it was just at that time, I wasn’t established. He just didn’t want to take that chance.

Keywords: Chrysler; Cincinnati; Detroit; Philadelphia; bookkeeper; bus; check; coal mine; tools

Subjects: Coal mines and mining

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Okay, we’ll I guess on that note I guess we’ll end the interview, and I’d like to thank you for your participation.
Homer Sherman: Yes, sir.
[End of Interview]