Oral History with Leola Burns Alexander Burford, March 11, 1991 (Ms1991-019)

Michael Cooke: Today is March 11,1991. I am conducting an interview with Leola

Burns Alexander Burford of Christiansburg. Mrs. Burford, could you give us a

brief sketch of your life, your birthday, birthplace, education, and occupation?

Leola Burford: I was born July 31, 1894 in this house in Christiansburg,

Virginia. I went to school on Rock Road. It was a one-room school there, taught

by Mrs. Belle Bentley. She was a native of Christiansburg, very fine lady. And

we went to the sixth grade there, and later on there, a school was 00:01:00built, a

brick school was built next to the church, on Zion Hill. And we went there after

we finished on Rock Road.

C: Is that called Hill-?

B: Finally--It's called Hill School. Finally, they tore down the school on Rock

Road. They discontinued that school entirely and started to send all of the

students up on the hill. We had to walk about three miles to school every

morning, and this went to the sixth grade. After we finished the sixth grade

there, we went over to the farm school.

C: The farm school was-

B: The Christiansburg Industrial Institute. It was at that time.

C: It was a farm. Can you remember anything about the origins of the 00:02:00school, how

it got started, Christiansburg Institute?

B: Well, yes, it got started by Captain Schaeffer, Captain Charles A. Schaeffer.

He started it on the hill, and later on he bought land. There was an old

farmhouse there, mansion house it was called, where the master of the place

lived in. And that became a classroom, that old house became a classroom. And

later on, Captain Schaeffer, he got Mr. Marshall to come from Tuskegee

Institute. Mr. Marshall brought with him several teachers, and they started out

at Hill School. They lived up on the hill, and they started there. And then when

they bought this property, they 00:03:00started the farm and living on in the old places

over there. And they built one building first, then they built several. There

were several buildings. But Mr. Marshall died, and Mr. Long, who came with him,

became the principal of C. I. I.

C: Was he also connected with Tuskegee?

B: Yes, all of the teachers at that time came from Tuskegee. Mr. Marshall

brought them up here with him. One was his sister, and then Mr. Long brought his

wife. And Mr. Marshall brought his wife. I have a picture of them, too.

C: Oh. I think I've seen a few pictures of them-

B: You have?

C: By the way. But 00:04:00do you recount ever seeing Booker T. Washington?

B: Yes. I was there when he came down. He came down to see what could be done

with the school, what they could do about it, because it seemed like it was--the

person who had charge of it--seemed like he wasn't doing very much. And Mr.

Marshall was asked to come and see what could be done. He came and he started.

And he brought these teachers with him, and he started out. And the school began

to grow, and more buildings were built there. They had a hard time because in

the summer, they said the teachers, they stayed there, they had to work on the

farm. Most said they had salad. [Laughs]. And then they 00:05:00had started to

raise hogs and chickens and cattle on the farm, that worked the farm, had

horses, too. Then, when Booker Washington came down here, he had to come--there

was no train. He couldn't come on the North Western. He had to come on the

Virginian, which was called the Virginian at that time, and they had to go over

to Blacksburg to meet him. So-

C: Do you remember some of the people who met him at the train station?

B: My grandfather and two uncles.

C: What was your grandfather's name?

B: James T. Carr. And he and two of his sons, and then several other men. There

was a man here that owned a whole lot of property. He had a delivery stable 00:06:00 down

right at the corner, on this side of where the ABC store is now, a great big stable.

C: Was his name Matthews?

B: No, his name was Childress.

C: Childress. Was he Black or white?

B: He was white. He owned a whole lot of land 'cause my father bought this place

where we are now from him. He was very good and would allow for negroes to buy.

Sometimes you couldn't buy property. But he allowed them to buy property. And

all out here, out this way, were negroes, uh-huh, and their homes. All out here.

It was prosperous at that time. It wasn't so prosperous for me because

[in] the winter time, the winters were so cold! All the 00:07:00ponds would

freeze over. Eight inches of ice would be on these ponds a lot of times. And my

grandfather had an ice house. He would go out and cut ice and put it in his ice house.

C: Did he sell the ice commercially?

B: No, no.

C: It's just for the-

B: He just put the ice in there to keep his vegetables and milk and things like

that. He built a house, and he put the ice in and put the straw over top of

that, and then they'd put vegetables down in there. Had to be very careful, too,

because when it thawed, when it began to melt, they had to be so careful in

going in there, in the ice house. But they'd go around and cut ice from the

different ponds and all. And then he had to grub new ground, what they called

new 00:08:00ground. He'd go out and dig up the roots and things on these places and cut

down trees, and my brothers worked with him.

C: So people did farm work, things of that nature, in this area?

B: That's right. They did farm work.

C: Did they work in the mines in this area?

B: Well, not very much. Blacksburg, there was mines over there, but several

people worked in them mines. I don't know of any Black person working in there-

C: And that's this area?

B: In this area.

C: Let me ask you another question, do you remember Booker T. Washington--did

you listen to the speech that he gave?

B: I was too young to understand what he was talking about! [Laughs]

C: Oh, you were just too-

B: I don't know how old I was. But anyway, I was sitting down on the ground in

front of the stage where he was.

C: You remember how many people might have been in attendance?

B: Oh, there were a lot of people. I don't know, but there were a lot of people 00:09:00 there.

C: A hundred or two hundred?

B: Yes, maybe two hundred, might have been more than two hundred were there.

C: Were there mostly Black people or some whites?

B: Well, some whites were there, too. Some whites were there, too, to hear him.

C: So it was a big affair?

B: It was a very big affair. They had that, and then they had lunch. I don't

remember the lunch, but I'm sure they did have it. [Laughs] And then

they took him back over there on the horses.

C: Did your father and his sons-

B: My father was dead at the time. My father died when I was five years old.

C: Oh, I see.

B: Yes.

C: Oh, you're talking about a relative?

B: My grandfather and uncles-

C: Oh, you grandfather?

B: Went over there with him, and they went back on horseback. They took a horse

over there for him to ride over. [Laughs].

C: Was he well-dressed, what could you remember? Was he well-attired? Or that's

so way back that you just can't recall.

B: I can't recall but I think he was from the pictures that I've seen of him.

C: Yes, I've seen them, too.

B: Yes, he looked just like those pictures.

C: Good.

B: Yes.

C: Well, 00:10:00talk about your education at the various--when you went to Rock School,

was it just a one-room-

B: It was just one room there up to the sixth grade.

C: How many students do you think were in the class?

B: In my class, in the school, there were about forty or fifty, something like that.

C: So, it was a good number of people.

B: Yes, but I don't know how many was in my class.

C: And it was just one teacher?

B: One teacher.

C: Was she originally from this area?

B: That's right, she lived in this area. Not in this area, she lived down on

what they called Depot Road, right across from that mill down there.

C: Yeah.

B: She lived right across the street on the opposite side.

C: Depot-

B: Depot Street-

C: Neighborhood.

B: Right there on the corner. And the road that's there now going up here,

that's where they had a store there. Her husband 00:11:00had a store, and, well, they

did a whole lot of things 'cause there was a barber and he sold food and

something else in his store.

C: What was his name, do you remember?

B: Bentley, Mr. Bentley.

C: Mr. Bentley?

B: That's right.

C: So he was one of the Black businessmen-

B: That's right.

C: At the time. I guess there were several others, too.

B: Um, no, there was a barber, Mr. Pate. He was a barber, but he was mostly

white barber. But he would do colored in the back of his house.

[Laughs]. He had a shop for the whites, but for the colored, he would

take them in the back and cut their hair sometime when he had time.

C: I see. Well, let's see. Talk a little bit more about your Christiansburg

Institute experience.

B: Well, when I went 00:12:00there, they didn't have all of the buildings that they had.

They just finished Morris Hall. When I graduated, I think our class was the

first class to have their exercise in the school building because it was always

too small. The graduation exercises were always held in the First Baptist

Church. That's where the commencement exercises was always held there-

C: Is that a Black church?

B: That's right. Church was right beside Hill School.

C: Is that Schaeffer?

B: That's Schaeffer.

C: It's now called Schaeffer.

B: That's right. It was Schaeffer at the time. No, it wasn't Schaeffer at the

time, either. It was just called Memorial Baptist Church. But, later on, one of

the ministers--Reverend 00:13:00Alexander--while he was pastor, he said that it ought to

be Schaeffer because Captain Schaeffer had organized it--had built the church,

had come here and bought the land, and had built the church--and it should be

called Schaeffer. And at that time, it became Schaeffer.

C: Good. What are some of your fondest memories of being a student at C. I.?

B: Well, there were only three in my class when we finished, three girls.

C: Three girls?

B: Two from Christiansburg and one from Roanoke. We all had to speak.

[Laughs] We all made our dresses and our hats for our graduation. I

think I have pictures around here somewhere.

C: And did the girl from Roanoke, did she board at the school?

B: Yes, she boarded there, but the other girl and I--Kathleen lived right across

the street from where S.B. is.

C: Oh.

B: Where S.B.'s shop is now.

C: 00:14:00Uh-huh, on Depot Street?

B: On Depot Street. That was hers--oh yeah, this is my graduation picture right here.

C: Oh.

B: [Laughs] With the principal.

C: And this is Professor E. Long-

B: Long. That's right. That's right.

C: Distinguished-looking individual.

B: This was Kathleen Stewart. She was valedictorian.

C: Okay.

B: And this was Florell Allen. She was from Roanoke. She went back to Roanoke

and taught school there until she died.

C: She never got married?

B: No, neither one of them.

C: Oh, that's something else. Kathleen Stewart.

B: She went to 00:15:00Cheyney [University of Pennsylvania] and finished Cheyney.

C: In Pennsylvania?

B: That's right.

C: Where did the Miss Allen go to school?

B: I don't know where Florell went. I don't remember where she went after

Christiansburg, but she taught in Roanoke.

C: Did all of you become teachers?

B: All of us were teachers.

C: Isn't that something? Is that by accident or was that by design, do you think?

B: Well, I don't know. [Laughter]. I taught school four years in

Christiansburg, and after, came back here and taught school where I went--the

building--where I went to school in for four years under the principal, Mrs.

McNorton. She was there at the time, and Kathleen Stewart was there at the time,

too. This one. When I taught there, whe was there, too.

C: Oh.

B: But she later went to North Carolina and taught down there.

C: Could you tell us about your 00:16:00college experiences?

B: Um-hm.

C: What prompted you to go to Hampton?

B: I had always said when I--we had some teachers at the Christiansburg

Industrial Institute from Hampton, who had graduated from Hampton. And I said,

that's where I want to go. I want to go to Hampton. I was fifteen, I believe,

years old at the time when I finished school. And there was a Mr. and Mrs.

Williams used to come up to Mr. Long's home in the summer on their vacation to

spend their vacation up here with Mr. Long. They liked to come up here, and Mrs.

Long found out that they were coming. They were from Hampton, and she wanted to

know and she wanted to ask me, since I said I wanted to go to Hampton, she liked

to have me to talk with them, maybe that they would take me down there and I

could work for them. They were colored, and I could work for them in their home.

And the money that I made would go to Hampton. 00:17:00It wouldn't come to me. It would

go to Hampton for my tuition. And I said, oh, that is fine. So they came up that

summer, they took me back to Hampton with them. And I stayed down there at their

home. For the first year, I worked in their home as a maid. And the second year,

I went in Hampton as a work student. They had, at that time, they had work

students, and I went in as a work student. My job was to work in the laundry. We

had to take all of the clothes, the names, had to check in the lists of the

students. The students were supposed to. They didn't put the list in, 00:18:00but we had

to check everything that was in the little bag. Everybody had a little bag, and

we had to take these bags and take out and check them and put them on a little

slip. It had little boxes around, and we put these in a box. And then, they

would go to the laundry, and after it came back. We had to take and get

everybody's laundry and put it in their box. [Laughs]. And if there's

any--the boys, we had to patch and darn the socks.

C: Oh my, no way. Well, you earned your education. [Laughter] That's

what work study is all about, isn't it?

B: And after that, after my work year, then I went to wait. And I was a waitress

in the hall, in the cafeteria, a students' cafeteria. 00:19:00I was waitress staff for a

year, and then the second year, they sent me to the teacher's home. And I had to

wait on teachers. I waited on one of the principals who became a principal, Dr.

Gregg, who came. I waited on his table when he came. Dr. Frissell, he was the

manager of Hampton when I went there, and he died the second year--yes he died,

I believe it was the second year--that I was there. And then they had Dr. Gregg

to come in. Dr. Frissell was a fine man. He's buried on the campus. Both of them

are buried there on the campus, in the campus cemetery.

C: Let me ask you one question. You said you worked a whole year before you went

and took classes?

B: That's right. When we were working in our work year, we had classes, some

classes, at night.

C: Oh, I see.

B: 00:20:00It was just a few we had at night. And then the second year, I had to work in

the mornings and go to school, come back, and work in the evenings. I waited on

tables then. I waited at the teacher's home and Holly Tree Inn. They had an inn

there called Holly Tree Inn, where teachers and outsiders could eat there, too.

And I waited there, too.

C: Was this typical of the Hampton experience? I mean, this is not something

unusual for potential students to spend a work year.

B: No, it was-

C: And worked throughout their career?

B: That's right. Boys did the same thing. It was work for everybody.

C: Was that kind of part of the philosophy?

B: That's right! It was. It was.

C: This is not just Hampton's stance. This is part of their 00:21:00 philosophy.

B: That's right.

C: That Black people should get accustomed to working and service.

B: That's right. That's right.

C: Learn on a hands-on basis, then work-

B: That's right. That's right. And Dr. Booker T. Washington established Tuskegee

after Hampton. Like Hampton was run, he was running Tuskegee.

C: He was a graduate of Hampton.

B: That's right.

C: And learned from his own collegiate experience.

B: That's right.

C: He tried to simply replicate what he went through. And he said, well, this is

a great idea. Why don't we have this in Alabama? And eventually, he began to

think about, well, why don't we have other schools similar or maybe lesser

schools such as Christiansburg Institute?

B: That's right. That's right.

C: 00:22:00Wow. After you finished your college career, you got a degree in what? You

didn't say.

B: Well, it wasn't a degree at the time. They weren't giving degrees at that

time, but mine was in education.

C: Okay.

B: Our manager, a teacher who had taught--we had to teach six months at Whittier

School. That was down from Hampton. That was an elementary school. We had to go

there and teach.

C: Oh, so that was our apprenticeship?

B: That's right, had to go down there and teach. They sent me down there and I

had to teach the fifth grade. I don't know why. [Laughs]. I always

wondered why they gave me, but they had from the first and second grades up to

the fifth and sixth grades. And they gave me the fifth grade.

C: For a whole year or more?

B: Well, nine months.

C: For nine months?

B: Nine months. And our principal, the lady who was over us, she was sick. 00:23:00 But

she would come around to your room. [Laughs] We always laughed at her.

She'd come around, and she'd turn her nose up. [Laughs]. Write on a

little slip of paper and leave. [Laughs]

C: Oh. Was she a hard person?

B: She was hard, but I don't know why.

C: Hard, but was she fair?

B: She was fair, I'm sure. She was fair. But I don't know. I was always scared,

to tell you the truth, of her. [Laughs].

C: But you survived.

B: But she had recommended me as one of the--they had at the time three

divisions in the county. They had kind of what they call county supervisors, and

they had so many schools in certain divisions. There were three of them. They

had one in Tidewater. Miss Bedley was in Tidewater. 00:24:00Then they had a Hampton and

that was Miss...I can't think of her name now. Then they had this one up here,

which was Mrs. Brown. Later on, she was Mrs. Brown after she married, but she

was up here in this division. And they had what they call a Jeanes Supervisor.

We were called Jeanes Supervisors, too. We had to go from school to school in

the county. They gave me Chesterfield County. That's where they sent me. I was

given a day from school to go with this lady to Chesterfield County and to meet

with some of people of the 00:25:00teachers' and student organizations there. I was very

scared, too. [Laughs]. They asked me to talk, and I didn't know what to

say. [Laughs]. Then I went with the supervisor, and we stayed, oh, we

were there one night--it was two nights I believe. That was about--I don't know

how much it was--about a month, I guess, before I graduated when I went up there

to go over this county with her. But Chesterfield County was one of the biggest

counties in the state, to tell the truth. But I walked all over that county.

C: [Laughter] Did you know how to drive?

B: I didn't have any car. I didn't have any car.

C: So, how did you get around? Did you just walk?

B: I had to walk. I had to 00:26:00ride the train. I had to ride buses. And people would

come and get me. But I visited every school in that county, except one place.

One of the place, they didn't have a bus to go down there, and they didn't have

a train, couldn't go by train there. All these other places that I could by

train, I went by train. But I couldn't go by train there. So I had to walk. I

didn't walk there. I went by train one time as far as I could go and then I

found out that the people didn't come after me, so I just had to catch the train

and go on back to Richmond. But I was in there for two years.

C: Were you well-paid or poorly-paid you think?

B: Well, I guess it might've been what was called well-paid, might have been

what they called well-paid.

C: But you weren't married at this point?

B: No, no. No, I wasn't married.

C: So, you were a single woman. Didn't have many expenses.

B: [Laughs]. Yes, I did 'cause I had to stay somewhere, had to pay my

board and lodge and travel on the 00:27:00buses and trains and wherever I had to go.

C: Did they reimburse you for these expenses?

B: No.

C: Just out of salary?

B: Sure. Yes, indeed.

C: Just out of salary.

B: That's right. Now, they gave you a little extra for going out. I had to go

out and look up some children, state children who were put out in the county in

homes. I was told to go there. So when I went out, some of them I never found,

some of them I didn't find at all. I couldn't find them. One place I went, I

started on over there, and big old dogs, opening the door. I said, unh-uh, can't

go there. [Laughs].

C: Not worth it. [Laughter]

B: They had wire fences and everything you had to go.

C: And they expected a lady to do this?

B: That's right! That's right. They expected us to do it.

C: [Laughs].

B: Yes, indeedy. Then you had to give demonstrations, 00:28:00canning and things like

that. You had to give demonstrations in homes. But I found the people in

Chesterfield County were just as good to me as they could be. They were lovely

to me. Wherever that I went, they were just so nice to me. I have some friends

down there now. Most of them that I knew are dead down there, but they were so

nice to me, so good to me. Wanted me to come to their homes for dinner. [Laughter]

C: Those were happy years, huh?

B: They were until--I said, I just couldn't make it because I didn't have any

transportation at all, and it was too much. So, I just had to give it up. When I

gave it up and came 00:29:00home. And then I went to Philadelphia--I believe it was over

there--and worked for one of the men who was a trustee in C. I. I., worked in

his home for a few months and then I came back home. I got sick and came back home.

C: When did you come back home to stay?

B: You mean up here?

C: Yeah.

B: I didn't come back here to stay until after my husband died. And my brother

and my sister. Our mother was sick, and I came up here to look after and take

care of her. And after she died, then I had a brother who was here, and he was

alone and I came. I said, well, somebody would have to be there with him. So, I

came to live with him.

C: Which brother was this? Is this Charles?

B: Charles.

C: Charles Henry Alexander?

B: That's right. And he fell from a tree back out here right in the backyard,

and I was right there and died in my arms. But 00:30:00then, see, I had my other sister,

Harriet, and Harriet had been blind in one eye about twenty years, ten years

anyway, before she lost the sight of the other eye. And she was totally blind

for about ten years.

C: So you had no other recourse?

B: I had to take care of her.

C: So when did you come back to take care of your brothers and your sister,

roughly speaking?

B: 1960-something. I believe in 1960, it was.

C: So you had been living outside of the community up until that time?

B: I had been living in Richmond.

C: Richmond?

B: In Richmond. Down there, I worked in the city schools as a cafeteria manager

for twelve years.

[Break in recording]

C: Okay. We're resuming the interview with--the tape that ran out on the 00:31:00 other

side. Okay, you can continue, Mrs. Burrell--I'm sorry--Burford.

B: When I married and went to Richmond, I went to work, first, in the library in

custodial. I worked there for about, I don't know how long, a year maybe? No, it

wasn't a year. Seven months, I think. At first, though, I worked in Miller +ACY-

Rhoads cafeteria for six years, till they put us out. [Laughs].

C: Why did they put you all out?

B: They put us out to try to take a--they had all negro waitresses in their

cafeteria, and they brought in white. They 00:32:00were only paying us three dollars a

week, and you were supposed to get tips. Some days I worked all day long, didn't

get one tip, not one. I never made too many tips. Some waitresses could make a

whole lot of tips, but I never made very many. But I was so embarrassed one time

there when the manager--the dining [32:33] manager--called all of us

together and told them that I was the best waitress they'd had. I was really

shocked. [Laughs]. And then, there was one girl who had to come there in

the mornings and get the tables in the dining rooms straightened out and salt

and pepper shakers and things like that on the tables before it was time for

lunch. She had vacation, so they asked me to come in. And that was a little

extra money. I needed that, too, because it was hard times at the 00:33:00time. It was

during the time of Depression, and my husband wasn't getting much work to do. He

was a carpenter.

C: Was that why you got fired in the first place?

B: No. No.

C: Is that why they let go of the Black waitresses?

B: Because it was-

C: The Depression?

B: No, no! That wasn't the reason. That wasn't the reason, really. It was

just that they put these white waitresses in.

C: They just didn't want-

B: They brought them in and would bring them in there to watch us serve and give

them lunch. They never gave us any lunch, and they gave them lunch. Then, they

put us out. Gave us one salary, and put us all out.

C: This is before-

B: Some of them had been there twenty years. Some of those waitresses had been

there twenty years.

C: So this is before the Depression.

B: During the Depression.

C: During the Depression.

B: Yes, really, during the Depression.

C: 00:34:00Well. Um-hm.

B: And we had to go out and do the best we could to get jobs where we could.

[Laughs]. I worked in the library then for several months, Virginia

State Library, cleaning rooms at night. That was a very big place, too.

C: Were there any white workers, or was it all Blacks who were involved in the cleaning?

B: All Blacks.

C: I guess it must not have been desirable for whites to be doing that, I guess.

B: They had men to do the big--I mean, the men were around. And we had to dust

and clean the rooms and [inaudible 34:53]

C: Do you ever 00:35:00feel somehow slighted that your education--that these--you know,

you had all that education and you were forced to do this kind of-

B: No. I never felt like I had so much education.

C: [Laughs].

B: I never felt that I had it all. [Laughs].

C: You never felt that you had arrived, huh?

B: No, I didn't. And then I got into the cafeteria business. I had a school, and

I loved that school. I surely did love it. It really debunked into two, but I

had to go from--no that wasn't it. That wasn't it. It was just one. But the

person who had one of the high schools, the manager there, had to have an

operation, and they wanted to send me there. I thought about that. I was so

upset. I didn't want to go. I didn't want to go there. That was a high school, 00:36:00and I didn't want to go to a high school. But I had to go because they told me

that I had to go. So I went. Armstrong High School, that's where I was, as the

cafeteria manager. And then at the time, you had to have Booker Washington, too,

because Booker Washington was small and they didn't have a cafeteria there. They

had to send the food from my school down there, from Armstrong down there, to

that school. And I had to go down there and supervise that part of it and check

that, come back to Armstrong. Well, I stayed at Armstrong. That's where I

retired from, Armstrong High School. Then, I did substitute work. I also worked

in the office with the manager. She would call me in the office to help her

sometimes. I worked there with her till I had to come here, and 00:37:00I was here with

my mother. My mother was sick, and I was here helping take care of her. And they

called here wanting me to come back and take one other person, one of the

manager's places that had to go in the hospital. I couldn't go 'cause my mother

was sick. And so that ended that.

C: Let's somewhat change gears about some of the things. Going back a little

bit, you said this area was primarily a Black area. Do you remember some of the

prominent families? Do you remember anything about some of the people who lived

in this area?

B: Man had a store. Colored man had a big store right across there, Mr. Dan

Hoston. And his brother, Roy Hoston, lived out beside of him. He lived right

above here, right on top of the hill. This road right here was not like it is

now. It was hilled. It went up a hill, went way down. It was a steep hill. Of

course, it was right on top of the hill that we crossed over. We used to have 00:38:00 to

go over in the spring over in the field and get water. We didn't have any system

or well over here, and we had to go to the spring to get water.

C: What about electricity? Did you have electricity?

B: No, we didn't have electricity at all. No. And then our property ran all the

way across. [Interstate] 81 was not there. Our property ran all across

there all the way out.

C: So part of the [Interstate] 81 is part of your family's property.

B: That's right. That's right. That whole part there belonged to this part here.

C: Did the family sell to the state? I guess it wouldn't be the state-

B: They took it.

C: They took it. Well, they condemned it-

B: That's right.

C: Condemnation, they call it. [Laughs].

B: That's right. But 00:39:00the man on the hill said, I'm going to try to get you all

just as much money out of it as I possibly can. And he did. He tried to. My

mother was living at the time, and the family started it. Of course, she died

before they put in another part of it, they put in. But he tried to get what he

could out of it for us.

C: Was he an attorney or white businessman or?

B: I don't know exactly what he was, to tell the truth. Might have been-

C: Oh.

B: He was a businessman, he was a businessman, all right.

C: Do you remember his name?

B: Schneider.

C: Schneider.

B: That was his name.

C: Well, I can look that up.

B: He had a son, Schneider, down here in town. I think he's sick now and

retired. I think he's retired, his son.

C: Any other Black families besides the one--was that a convenience store those

people had?

B: No, it was just a grocery store.

C: Grocery store.

B: But they did sell gasoline.

C: Oh, they did?

B: No, they didn't sell gasoline at that 00:40:00time, but it was sold to the people who

bought the house across the street.

C: Okay.

B: Across the street was a house built--it was Kirk family that owned it. Miss

Stella Jackson. Her father had a blacksmith shop around on--used to have to come

down this road and go across, across here where you didn't have [State

Route] 8--I mean, College [Street] was not there.

C: Okay.

B: So it went across here, all across, way all across there, and down the next

one [40:33]. Buffalo Drive I believe it is.

C: Oh yeah, yeah, I know where that is.

B: That's down-

C: Way back down there, yeah.

B: Yeah, that's right. Well, you had to go right through there, and down, and

then across.

C: Then cut over.

B: And then cut over way down where the hospital is. Ain't that something? Where

the doctor's office is down there, cut back over in here. That was the road 00:41:00 then.

C: So, there's a lot of changes happening.

B: Oh, yes, indeed.

C: Were the roads paved or anything?

B: No!

C: No. [Laughs].

B: No. That's the reason it was Mud Pike.

C: It was not called Mud Pike for no reason. I mean, out of coincidence.

B: It was really Mud Pike, too. Yes, it was, yes it was.

C: I mean, were certain years it was virtually impassible? Or parts of the year

that were-

B: Well, no, not impassible-

C: But difficult.

B: Yes, just difficult to go over. It was very muddy.

C: So, it was aptly described. [Laughs].

B: It was very, very muddy. That's right. And we had oxcarts that came by here.

The people employed would come in and they would stop down below the hill to

give their oxen and horses more water. The creek was down there, and they'd stop

down there and spend the night, a lot of times, down there, and come on up the

hill the next 00:42:00morning with produce. Then they'd drive cattle and horses, and

sheep. One time they had turkeys, I believe-

C: Down the road?

B: Down the road. [Laughter]. Down the road, yes.

C: Where were they headed with all this, this flock of-

B: Well, they were going down to the railroad track they had down there and put

on a train.

C: Uh-huh. They weren't going to the stockyard?

B: Well, no. A lot of times--a row of horses, you know, Mr. Childress had those,

and he would take them from one field to the other--cattle and all,--from one

field to the other. That's the way he did it. If you was out there, you'd just

have to get out the way of them.

C: [Laughs]. Well, that's interesting. Did any whites live in the

community where you grew up? How close were any white families to the-

B: 00:43:00They were across the street, just like-

C: Oh, right across the street.

B: When they bought the store, a man--they were called Quakers at that time. He

was a Quaker, and he bought the store. And he and his wife and his family lived

across the street there, right in that house.

C: Were they friendly, or-

B: They were very friendly. They were very friendly.

C: Was the relationship with whites and Blacks pretty good?

B: Yes, it was. It was all right.

C: Were there any, recently-

B: Well, downtown you'd pass by and sometimes they'd pass by and children would

say, hi nigger.

C: Oh, they would?

B: Oh, yes, and when we went to school, they'd knock us off the street.

C: Off the sidewalk?

B: Off the sidewalk. They didn't want us to be on the sidewalk--indeed.

C: So you remember that very vividly?

B: I do that because-

C: Did that happen to you?

B: No, no.

C: But you saw people-

B: I didn't see it, actually see it. But I know that they 00:44:00 did.

C: People told you that you couldn't do this or they would push you off.

B: Uh-huh. One time, the one pushed a one girl off the sidewalk, and she took a

rock and threw it. And the rock struck a child. So they had to go to court for

that, but--

C: Struck a white child?

B: Yes, it struck--see, it hit the side and bounced off and hit the child. They

had to go to the-

C: Any other kind of friction of that nature that you can recall between Blacks

and whites?

B: Not exactly, no.

C: No? But that's probably the most--

B: That's right. That's part of the--that was the most-

C: Most-

B: But we tried to stay out of it, stay away from that kind of thing. That kind

of thing that we 00:45:00tried to stay away from.

C: Could you freely go to restaurants, and could you go in-

B: Oh, no! You couldn't go to no restaurants. You wouldn't have been to

restaurants, you went to the back door if you wanted to buy anything.

C: If you wanted to buy something, you had to go to the back door?

B: Yes.

C: What restaurants did the Black people go to?

B: They didn't go to any restaurants. Well, they went down--that's where Mr.

Bentley, his place was kinda-

C: He was a Black man.

B: That's right, and then-

C: Could you sit down and eat in his place?

B: Oh, yes.

C: So, it was a real nice diner.

B: Well, it wasn't so nice as all of that, but it was a place. [Laughter].

C: At least you didn't have to go to the back door.

B: No. No, no. You never go to the back door there. No indeedy.

C: Did you go to the theater? How did Black people entertain themselves? I mean,

they didn't simply go to school and go to church and go to work. What did they

do for entertainment?

B: Well, they had entertain[ment] joints down on the Blacksburg

Road--down a Blacksburg Road or Blacksburg [inaudible 46:03]---down there 00:46:00from--I don't know where that place was now. Black people had little joints,

like, around, and they would have-

C: Do you remember some of the people who operated them, or remember their names?

B: No. S. B. Morgan's place down here, and Burrell had a place, too. Burrell

Morgan had a place. But I don't remember any of these others. These others were

down a little lower. They had dances and things like that and all that.

C: Was there musical interests on the part of people living here? Did they

have--were they into what we call hillbilly music, or? What kind of music did

people listen to or play?

B: I don't know, 'cause I never went there. [Laughs].

C: Never went. They did 00:47:00 play-

B: [Laughs].

C: Play banjo?

B: Banjos and things like that.

C: That's kind of hillbilly. Was there-

B: Yes, I guess it might've been called hillbilly. I guess that's what it was called.

C: Did people dance hillbilly style?

B: I reckon they did. I reckon they did.

C: Do you remember seeing people-

B: No, I never saw.

C: You never went to those-

B: No. No, indeed.

C: [Laughs]. Why didn't you go?

B: My mother and them never let us go no place like that. [Laughter] We

didn't want to go there.

C: You wanted to go there?

B: No, no. I never wanted to go.

C: You never wanted to go.

B: Unh-uh. 'Cause they were rude a lot of times. Used to knock people out and over.

C: Oh, so they were rowdy people.

B: Yes, yes!

C: The people who went to those places were rowdy.

B: Yes.

C: More refined people didn't go to-

B: No, no. No. Unh-uh.

C: Okay. Well, I just wanted to make sure who I was dealing with. So we're

dealing with a refined Black woman who did not go to those places.

B: [Laughs]. No, indeedy. No, 00:48:00 sir.

C: Under threat of death from parents, that the parents would have killed you if

you'd went to a place like that. [Laughter].

B: Yes, our mother always told us, if you get a whipping at school, you was

gonna get one when you get back home. So, we never got no whippings at school.

C: Okay. [Laughter]. I wish I could have said the same, but I don't

think I can. Believe me, I got my share.

B: Oh, she could whip you. She'd whip you every time you--and I got my share, too.

C: What about church life? Was that real important around here?

B: Yes. That was very important. We had prayer meetings on Sunday evenings. We

had cottage prayer meetings from house to house.

C: Oh, went house to house?

B: From house to house. We'd start down here and go on out the road, way on out

the road, out past my grandfather's and uncle's house out there, way on out the

road there.

C: 00:49:00Who was this sponsored by? Was it the Schaeffer or some other church or just

people in the community said, well, let's just-

B: People in the community, really, because my grandfather was a deacon of the

church and he used to, hosted that. He was a deacon, and he would have it. And

then after that, I mean, we as a group left from Schaeffer. We used to go out

and have prayer service in the homes. That was a long time after all my people

died except Nadine [49:34]. My sister was living, and we used to go down

with the group.

C: So this community, would you describe it as very--I mean, the immediate

community where we live in, where we're located today, Mud Pike Road, was that a

very religious community?

B: Yes.

C: Would you describe-

B: Yes, I would describe it as-

C: People here as very-

B: Yes, because one man out here--he was a brother to this one that had a 00:50:00store--he was a preacher.

C: Oh, what did he preach?

B: He was a Baptist preacher, and he had an established church in Blacksburg.

His picture's up in that church. First Baptist Church in Blacksburg.

C: Oh, Clay Street?

B: Roy Hoston.

C: Hoston, okay.

B: His picture's in the church.

C: Okay. I'm a member of St. Paul A.M.E., so I don't end up quite often at First

Baptist. But next time I'm over there, I'll look for it.

B: Yes, it's up in there if they haven't taken it down. It was up in there last

time I was over there. Mr. Roy Hoston. Because my brother married one of his

daughters. One of my brothers, after his first wife died, he married one of the

daughters, Lucy. They lived right over here. My brother built those houses, that

house and two houses over here on this side. Those two little cottages over there.

C: So what kind of work did your brothers do?

B: My brother, the youngest one was a 00:51:00carpenter. The other one didn't have any

real--he did just jobs, like cutting grass and things in the town for people.

And then they did clean up a church down there one time.

C: So they built some homes around this area.

B: Oh, my brother could build anything he wanted to build. And anything anybody

else wanted, he'd build it. [Laughs]. He could build it. He was a

good--he never went to school for carpentry, but picked it up. The Lord gave it

to him and he did it.

C: Did he go to C. I.?

B: Yes, but he didn't finish. He was the only one that didn't finish.

C: 'Cause didn't they have a bricklaying and carpentry-

B: Oh, yes. Yes, yes, yeah. All of that there.

C: Yeah, and barbering and everything you could think of.

B: That's right, that's right. Of course, I wasn't there when they had

barbering. When I was there, we only had the bricklaying and carpentry work.

They had the carpentry shop 00:52:00when I was there.

C: Okay. Well, that's good to know. I knew that they didn't have barbering the

whole time. I wasn't sure about when, so you've given me a little bit more perspective.

B: Then they had a hospital there.

C: Right, they had a hospital. I knew about that.

B: You did?

C: Yes.

B: My cousin-

C: What was the name of the hospital? I can't remember. Somebody said it on the

tape, but it's been a week or so and I can't remember. What was the name of

the--It wasn't really a hospital, wasn't it kind of an infirmary or-

B: It was a hospital because they operated on people there.

C: Oh, they did?

B: Operated on one of my cousins. She was the first person, I think, was

operated on in there. Cousin Karen.

C: They didn't have-

B: Operated on in that hospital.

C: Didn't have any Black physicians, did they?

B: No, no, no.

C: The white physicians simply didn't operate on people at the white hospital.

They simply had kind of a satellite hospital.

B: They did operate on at white hospitals a lot of time and sent them back home.

C: But they wouldn't keep them?

B: No, no. They didn't keep any.

C: That is, you got the operation and 00:53:00get out.

B: That's right. That's right. That's right.

C: So that was one of the reasons for the Black hospital. You had--

B: Yes. After you did that [53:04]--

C: You could convalesce if you needed some time to recuperate.

B: Sure. Yes.

C: You could convalesce at these. Not like the white hospital that's, hurry up

and get out. [Laughs]

B: Um-hm. That's right.

C: Even if you were on your sickbed.

B: Yes. But that cousin, she was very sick. When my grandmother died, the doctor

who everybody--the funeral procession passed right by, because my grandfather

lived up the road, passed right by the house. It was a man who, a doctor here,

and he advocated having windows up all winter and summer. With the cold, cold,

cold. We said, Lord, that lady's gonna freeze to death in that house. When we

passed by, people said, she's gonna be the next one. But that 00:54:00lady got up from

there. This doctor worked on her. He would come out here, walk out--he walked,

and I don't care how cold it was. You'd see him coming up the street with his

coat hanging loose. He's just walking, showing his white shirt and all. He came

out there and looked after her, and she got out of the bed.

C: What was the doctor's name?

B: Can't think of his name now. [inaudible 54:23]

C: But doctors all the time did that.

B: Janney, I believe his name was. I'm not sure.

C: Okay. Well, were the white physicians disrespectful to the Black patients or

respectful or?

B: We had one old doctor here, Dr. Edmondson. He was a white. I think he

delivered all Mama's children. He was an old doctor, but he was very nice.

C: Did he deliver you?

B: I guess he did, guess he did. He was the only doctor here.

C: There were 00:55:00no Black midwives?

B: Yes, we had a Black midwife right down the street here. She was Mrs. Gray.

C: Mrs. Gray?

B: Uh-huh. Her name was Miss Gray, she was a midwife.

C: Were there many others or just a few?

B: I think my grandmother was a midwife. I think she was. She worked for white

people. She had nursed Judge--was it? He was the judge--Judge Gray. Not Gray.

What was the man's name? Judge--Crush.

C: Crush. I'm not familiar with that.

B: His name was Charles Crush.

C: Charles Crush?

B: Um-hm. Yeah. She nursed 00:56:00him, my grandmother.

C: And your grandmother was named-

B: Harriet Eliza Carr.

C: Oh, on the Carr side of your family.

B: Yes, that picture right inside that door. That big picture. On the outside of

the door.

C: On the outside, okay. I'll look when I-

B: Uh-huh. [Laughs]. She was a lovely lady.

C: Did she just deliver white children or did she deliver white and Black children?

B: I don't know that. I know that she was working for white, but I don't know

nothing about--she might've. I don't know whether she ever delivered colored or not.

C: Okay, well, let's see. Last question I can think of is, what kind of social

organizations existed in this area? For instance, in Blacksburg they had such

things as the Odd Fellows and the Masons and the Independent Order of St. Luke,

and the Household of Ruth. 00:57:00Did Black people in Christiansburg belong to such organizations?

B: I don't know, because I don't remember any of them, nor of anybody belonging

to any of those organizations here.

C: At least in terms of this community.

B: No, I don't. I don't. They may have, but I don't remember.

C: There was an Odd Fellows Lodge in Christiansburg, and I believe it was the Masons.

B: Uh-huh.

C: I can't remember right offhand if there was a Household of Ruth, but there

were some of the fraternal orders I've mentioned.

B: Yes.

C: But nobody in this community seemed to be associated with them.

B: I don't think so.

C: Okay, well, I think we've covered most of the ground. Is there any loose end

that you want to tie up?

B: I don't think so.

C: Well, thank you for your participation. Now, I'm gonna take a look at all the

photographs you've got.

[End of interview]